Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2007

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I realize that, as a result of the weather, certain important witnesses, including Mr. Loewen, who worked on the research project for Elections Canada, will be unable to appear today. Would it be possible to hear them next Tuesday rather than have the minister appear on other bills?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

In fact, as for Mr. Loewen, my understanding is he should be here in five minutes.

Ms. Dobrzynska will also be here in five minutes. Mr. Archer is obviously at the end of the table. Ned Franks will be here today. David Docherty is stuck in Toronto. He can come on Tuesday or Thursday.

That makes the decision. Mr. Docherty can come Tuesday or Thursday. The other witnesses could be invited also for Tuesday or Thursday. The minister is not available on Thursday, so that puts him back to Tuesday.

Mr. Angus, and then Madame Picard.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

We certainly believe in the principle that we have to hear the witnesses necessary before we do clause-by-clause, and I think we're all on the same page in that.

I think it would be excellent if we had the minister come on Tuesday. It would be a good chance. The minister is very busy, so it's easier for us to adapt to his schedule than for him to adapt to ours.

I think the rural identification vote is a big issue. We have to make sure that we have all our ducks lined up in a row before we go back to the Canadian people, so I certainly would like to hear from the minister on Tuesday, continue on with our witnesses on this bill, and then go to clause-by-clause.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Okay.

Madame Picard, please.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

For my part, I'd like to hear Mr. Blanchet. Do you know whether he's outside? We could organize a videoconference or at least ask him to send us his comments in writing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Madame Picard, I actually anticipated that request. I've asked Mr. Blanchet to send in writing his opinions on the bill. However, I still felt that we needed to ask the committee if they wanted to actually hear from the witness first, as well as.

So we will receive something in writing from Mr. Blanchet. He is not available at all next week. Apparently he's testifying on a similar matter in the province, so we were usurped by that issue. He may be available the week after, but again this leaves us without him next week.

We're still back to filling up Tuesday. I have Madam Redmond back on the list here, so we're going to hear from Madam Redmond and then we can make a decision.

Madam Redmond.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I had requested earlier.... I have heard from your office, but unfortunately there's no steering committee this week. It's not scheduled until next week. And I would point out that we were dealing with the in and out advertising system the Conservative government used in the last election. That motion is still on this table.

I think everybody on this committee can walk and chew gum, so I would suggest that rather than pulling forward legislation that hasn't yet been presented to this committee, next week, in lieu of having a string of witnesses on these important issues, we could take the time to deal with that very important issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Obviously I'm going to leave it up to the committee. I did call your office, all the whips actually, regarding the steering committee. Monsieur Guimond was available for yesterday. I did not hear back from your office, Madam Redman. I heard from Monsieur Godin, who said that he couldn't meet until next Wednesday, and then I did hear from you late Wednesday, which was far too late to get the meeting together for Wednesday.

So I did mean to bring that up today, that next Wednesday is a scheduled steering committee at 3:30, and the subcommittee on the code of ethics will be also meeting right after that, so it's all falling together. It's going to happen, but I don't see that happening as quickly as yesterday.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Why does it have to be on a Wednesday?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

It doesn't.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'm here today. I'm here tomorrow. I'd be more than happy to meet as a representative of the Liberals on the steering committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I can send out a notice again requesting whether Friday's okay. I won't be here on Friday, I apologize. So we have a notice going out today that the steering committee is next Wednesday at 3:30, because those are the agreed times that I've gotten from the majority of the members of that committee.

I am certainly happy to discuss that with you after. If we want to try to schedule something for Monday or Friday or earlier, as long as everybody's agreeable to it, I'm comfortable with that, but those are the reasons why I chose next week. Wednesday is just the normal day that they meet. We met the first time on a Monday because that's when we were here, but normally the steering committee, when it does meet, it was a Wednesday afternoon, as did the subcommittee. There was no harm intended. It was just trying to organize some very busy schedules.

Colleagues, is there any...? Yes, Mr. Reid, please.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

With regard to the steering committee, my understanding is that as presently composed it consists of yourself as chair, which means that you are not in a position to advocate the point of view of the Conservative Party but rather are in a neutral position, and then it consists of one member from each of the other parties. So there is in fact no member of the Conservative Party there representing the perspective of the government on the committee, and for that reason I must say I think it's unbalanced.

There are other committees that have steering committees that include a government member, that are five-member committees and similar in their structure to the conflict of interest code subcommittee that we just struck. I must say I think it would be more appropriate to have a similar structure for the subcommittee, and I would like to make a motion to that effect.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Could I, just for my own convenience, ask you to put that motion forward once we deal with the Tuesday issue? Is that fair? Because the steering committee is on Wednesday, and I just want to get these witnesses or the minister here for Tuesday, and then I'm happy to go back and deal with what's happening with respect to the steering committee.

I'm happy to do it now, because I'm not saying no to you--

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

No, okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

--it's just a matter of order and so we're solving problems in a certain order.

Colleagues, if there are no other statements on this, I'm going to ask for your indulgence that we in fact bring the minister in on Tuesday, deal with those two bills, have the steering committee at this point in time on the Wednesday, but possibly we might discuss it earlier, and we can talk about other agenda items at that point.

Do I have the consensus of the committee that the minister comes on Tuesday and deals with these two bills that are coming before us?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I'm going to speak with Madam Redman after to see when the steering committee meets.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have received a message on my BlackBerry from my staff who are watching this in the office, and apparently we phoned your office at nine o'clock on Monday morning to have a steering committee.

So I'm just going to reiterate.... It's quite interesting to hear Mr. Reid talk about the need for an enlarged steering committee. There certainly are committees that operate with no steering committee, and if you're going to get to five or six people in a steering committee, it would seem to me that you're nullifying the agility that one would hope one would have with a steering committee. Maybe those kinds of future plans should be made by a committee of the whole, rather than by hiving off half of this committee to go off and decide things that come back to this committee before they're enacted anyway.

I have great concern that there has been filibustering in this committee since August--I would remind us collectively--on an issue that's of great importance to Canadians, in that there is a motion before us that has not been dealt with because of the active and vigorous discourse given by a variety of Conservative members who have rotated in and out of this committee. It is an issue that I think all opposition parties feel very strongly should come before this committee.

I'm also aware of the fact that we're keeping Mr. Archer waiting. He has braved the weather to come here and report on this issue. I would say that it seems like another attempt to catapult other issues, important as they may be, in front of an issue that was started and actually could have been well on its way to being discussed and perhaps resolved starting last August. There has been a vigorous attempt by government members to keep this off the table. This seems like another ploy, in my view. So because of that, I look at it with a little bit of concern and am a bit suspicious of the motives.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

The chair apologizes for your inability to see what's obvious, Madam Redman. The steering committee did meet originally, and we discussed that legislation would be dealt with and that if we had no legislation we would revert to these other motions. That's exactly what the chair is doing.

If anybody is trying to avert the committee from its business, which the steering committee recommended and which was adopted by this committee, Madam Redman, it would appear that it's you at this point.

So I'm going to propose that we stay with legislation, as agreed, and I'm happy to meet with you Monday, Wednesday, or Friday, if you like. Your office may have called me on Monday, but we spoke on Tuesday at this meeting regarding a steering committee, and I spoke with you or got hold of your staff--I can show you the e-mail--and you got back to me that you were going to check.

Monsieur Guimond got back to me and said it was okay today or Wednesday or next Wednesday. Monsieur Godin got back to me. You and your office or whoever was responsible did not get back to me until the following day, not Monday but Wednesday. We have a 48-hour notice of meetings. There's not 48 hours between 9 a.m. Wednesday and 3:30 Wednesday on any calendar I know about.

Colleagues, I just want to point out, if you are sensing some impatience from the chair, that I am aware of what's going on in committees, and I'm not about to sit here and tolerate it. We have a job to do. We can get this job done. We can do all of the above. We have legislation in front of us. The minister is very busy. We can get two bills dealt with next week. We can move to witnesses. We can be efficient. We can set up extra meetings, but I'm not going to sit here and see time wasted on having issues that don't actually matter in front of us when we can't do anything about them.

We have witnesses here who have travelled a long way. I think we should hear these witnesses. I think we should do the business of the committee, which is a motion, but not the other way around. It's my feeling that we should do legislation. That's what we agreed on.

At the steering committee, please inform your member to bring that up, and we will have a vote. If the steering committee wants to change the direction and the precedent of the House, then this committee will adopt or reject the steering committee's report.

Now, are there further comments, or can we move on with business?

Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Chair, I have just a very brief comment regarding the composition of the steering committee and particularly in response to Madam Redman's conspiracy theory that there is some attempt on the Conservative members' behalf to hijack that committee.

There is certainly not. Mr. Reid was merely raising the issue of fairness. My understanding is that the chair does not have a vote on that committee, so the Conservative Party is thus unrepresented in terms of votes.

If Madam Redman doesn't want to have an additional government member sit on the committee, then I would suggest a compromise: why not let the committee composition remain the same but Madam Redman take the chair, and then you would have a vote?

[An hon. member]

That's a good point.

[An hon. member]

I think that's excellent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

If the committee wants to continue this debate, I'm not going to suggest which direction the committee should go in. The committee is the master of its own domain and its direction. I'm just trying to keep things civil and moving forward.

Do we want to continue to debate the proportional representation on the steering committee? In fact, if I can speak for the steering committee—and you're quite right, I don't have a vote—the steering committee has met, and it's very congenial. Everybody talks. We seem to get along, and we seem to get our business done.

What I would like to do right now is get the committee's permission to invite the minister for Tuesday. Are we ready for the question? Apparently not.

Madam Picard, and then Mr. Preston.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that we hear our witnesses? I believe the situation is very unpleasant for them, who have travelled all this way to come here. So I move that we hear our witnesses, that we finish with the agenda and that we resume our discussions afterward.