Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 27th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Mr. Godin, you have five minutes, please.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I'd like to come back to ID issue. It's my belief, unless I'm mistaken, that option one is to vote with a photo ID. In such cases, individuals are identified by photo.

The second option, for those who don't have photo ID, is to show two pieces of identification without a photo. However, these forms of ID must be recognized by Elections Canada.

Is that correct?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Yes.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

In those instances, I would not need anyone to come with me and confirm that both identity cards belonged to me.

Do you agree with that?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Absolutely.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

The only instance where a person would have to confirm whether I am indeed who I claim to be is if I carry no identity card.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

That's correct.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Let's come back to the photo and passport issue. Someone who arrives at the airport has to show his or her passport. The customs officer identifies the passenger by means of the photograph in the passport.

Do you agree?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

That's correct.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

If the person carried no passport, there would be no photo. There would be nothing showing that person's face.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Yes.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

They wouldn't allow you into the country, period. That would be a total denial of your--

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Identifying oneself means showing a photo that looks like one's face. In other words, if I asked Charlie, who is here, to identify me and showed him two documents with no photo, we would not get very far. Without a photo, how could he identify me?

There are no photos on the voters' list. In some countries, like South Africa, they take measures to ensure a given person cannot vote twice on the same day by putting a special ink on their finger that will not wash off for a week. I don't want to show you the wrong finger, but indelible ink is applied to that finger. That's a way of preventing people from voting twice.

We often talk about Morocco. Do Moroccan voters have to show an identity document bearing a photo?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

I have to confess that I'm not an expert on the Moroccan electoral system or processes.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Then I would appreciate our getting this answer, maybe, through the committee. I think it's very important, because we refer to Morocco many times and to the idea of Morocco. Is it because they are showing an identification card with a photo that they have to unveil then? You want to make the liaison between the two; that's the identification.

I come back to this situation. Yes, our party is supporting this. I think it's because of society; we say it looks as though the majority of people don't accept this. We want people to show it, and it will be clear, with no bad interpretation. It's going to be clear: people who show up to vote show their face. Why don't we say it as it is? It will go a lot better.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, colleagues.

What I'd like to do right now, if there are no further questions for the minister on Bill C-6 , is suspend the meeting for one minute so that colleagues and the witnesses can remove all their research papers and notes on this bill and prepare themselves for the next item of business, which is Bill C-18. I will suspend the meeting for one minute.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, thank you. We're going to reconvene our meeting today.

I'm not sure we have to go into introducing our witnesses, as they've already introduced themselves and are in fact the same.

Colleagues, in this second hour, pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, November 16, 2007, we will be dealing with Bill C-18, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act (verification of residence).

I understand that all members have the act in front of them, as well as some research on the act.

I will simply remind members that I need some time—we will go over a little bit at the end of this meeting—to deal with committee business. But at this point in time I will ask the honourable minister to open up.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

May I raise a point of clarification?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Yes, please.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

I know we went a little over time with the first bill we discussed. Are we planning to adjourn to go into special business again? You referred to one o'clock. Are you planning to give a full hour to this discussion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I'm planning to go for 45 minutes, which means ending at one. I will obviously not want to cut the minister off and not want to stop some interesting questions, so I will be listening to verify that the questions aren't repetitive and that they are on the bill, rather than on something else. If I sense the committee is done with the minister—no offence—then we will move into committee business, but I am planning to go to committee business at one o'clock.

Without further ado, Minister, thank you again for being so prepared for this meeting on two bills. We invite your opening statement on Bill C-18.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Bill C-18, the verification of residence bill, is one designed to ensure that legitimate voters will be able to exercise their fundamental democratic right to vote.

I think everybody recalls how we got to where we are. Bill C-31 was passed by this Parliament to improve the integrity of the voting process and prevent voter fraud. The bill was made based on recommendations that came out of this committee in a report that was dated June 20, 2006, and it was a report that was supported by all political parties.

For the first time ever, and many voters comment to me positively about this, the bill required voters to demonstrate their identity and residence before being allowed to vote.

To establish identity and residence, voters must either show one government-issued piece of identification containing a photograph, as well as the name and residential address of the voter; or show two pieces of identification approved by the Chief Electoral Officer, both of which contain the name of the elector, and one of which contains his or her residential address.

Or, the voter must have another registered voter in the same polling division vouch for the elector, after having shown the pieces of identification required to prove his or her own identity and residence.

These new requirements were designed to ensure that those who vote during elections are actually legitimate voters.

With the new requirements, people will no longer be able to pick up voter information cards abandoned at apartment building entrances, and vote under the name of a different voter.

There will also be no way to vote in a riding where the voter works, rather than in the riding where the voter lives, in order to support a particular candidate in a particularly tight race.

Since the bill received royal assent in June, Elections Canada has identified a problem with the requirement for voters to demonstrate their residence before voting.

In defence of this committee, which dealt with the bill originally, it should be said that the problem had not been identified by the Chief Electoral Officer when he originally came to testify before you.

To that extent, while everyone here shares an ownership in the problem, that ownership in the problem is in part because the ownership was spread out and the Chief Electoral Officer did not communicate the problem to you at the time you were originally dealing with the bill.

This problem is that many voters do not have a piece of identification with a civic address that can prove their residence on polling day.

For some voters, the problem lies in that the full municipal address is not provided. Others have one, but it does not appear on their pieces of identity.

It's a problem that arises most often in rural areas across the country. It's most often in these areas that individuals may only have a postal address, such as a post office box, a rural route number attached to a post office, or simply a mailing address that provides for general delivery to a particular post office.

These individuals will be unable to produce identification with a civic address that can establish their residence.

Moreover, because the problem affects particular regions, the voters in question would have trouble finding someone to vouch for them, because their neighbours will probably not have a home address on their piece of identity either.

Now, once the government was informed of this problem by Elections Canada, we moved very quickly to solve it, with the assistance of Elections Canada and in consultation with all the other political parties.

The solution proposed in the bill provides for an address on a piece of identification to prove residence, even a non-civic address if the address is consistent with information about the voter on the list of voters.

When registering to vote--that would be registering for the first time--the voter would have to prove they lived in the polling division where they intend to vote. Since this is the case, we can now use the mailing address that appears on the voters list to corroborate that it is the same voter who has already proven that they reside in this polling division.

The same would apply to someone who vouches for another voter. If the mailing address on his or her pieces of identity corresponds to the information on the voters' list, that will be considered sufficient proof of residence.

An election official or a candidate's representative who has reasonable doubt about a voter's residence will still be able to challenge this voter. In such a case, in order to vote a person would have to take an oath as well.

It's important to note that for individuals not on the voters list, who are seeking to register at an advance poll or on a polling date, to be on the voters list they will still have to show a piece of identification that contains a residential address, or otherwise be vouched for. This is to ensure the integrity of the information in the register and to ensure that those who are registered to vote in the polling division really do reside in that polling division.

Mr. Chair, our verification of residence bill solves the problem of verifying the residence of voters who do not have a civic address on their identification. Now that the government has acted quickly, with the assistance of Elections Canada and in consultation with the other political parties, it's incumbent, I believe, on Parliament to act quickly so that Elections Canada can apply these rules at the earliest possible opportunity.

I'd like to thank you for your attention and answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, Minister.

Is there anyone wishing to ask a question on the official opposition side?

Monsieur Proulx, we will stay with seven-minute rounds. You're welcome to share your time. If you don't need it, that's even better.

Monsieur Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

It'll be very brief. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you again.

Minister, the main problem was pointed out to us by Elections Canada. May I assume that the repairs have been discussed with Elections Canada and that everybody is happy with the solutions?