Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 4th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Instead of having to restrike a subcommittee to report back, we felt we could take this step and go that way. We'll certainly do it the opposite way if the committee wishes to.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Yes, because it's unfortunate that Mr. Reid.... I'm not putting blame on Mr. Reid, but I'm saying that it's unfortunate. He was chairing that subcommittee, and, as Mr. Lukiwski was saying, he is the last on this particular committee. It's unfortunate that we could not benefit from his advice or his comments.

I appreciate the fact that he says they were A-1, but knowing Mr. Reid, I'm sure he's got some--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

It would be a longer dissertation than just those....

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I didn't say that, Mr. Chair. Don't say that. You might want to say that, but I didn't. I respect Mr. Reid. He's an honourable member of Parliament.

It leaves us in sort of a bind.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Well, we have two options to do, obviously.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

We can decide on that.

Good day and welcome to the committee, Ms. Dawson. I would also like to welcome your colleagues.

Our researchers have drawn up a fairly comprehensive report. According to this report, you are in the process of drafting guidelines on gifts.

It says you are developing guidelines on gifts and other benefits. Is there any possibility that you could hand them out in point form? Perhaps they are already in the binder, which I glanced through. Did you intend to give us, on a point-form basis, some guidelines that you wanted to discuss?

[Mary Elizabeth Dawson]

I haven't brought those to do for today. We probably don't have time to have a detailed discussion today on this subject. I'm asking that you consider having a detailed discussion. For that discussion, I could bring either point-form or draft guidelines or whatever you'd like to see.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

You are absolutely right in the sense that today is not the best of days to ask members of Parliament to discuss or concentrate attentively on these discussions.

Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair.

Merci, Madame.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Albrecht.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank Ms. Dawson for her presentation.

I thought I heard during your presentation a comment about public office holders, and then you went on to describe them as ministers and staff.

[Mary Elizabeth Dawson]

Yes, I said ministers and staff.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Does that not also include parliamentary secretaries?

[Mary Elizabeth Dawson]

Yes.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Okay. I'm new to this committee. Could you give those of us around this table a bit of an umbrella view concerning who all this covers and who is not included?

[Mary Elizabeth Dawson]

It doesn't include members of Parliament. That's a different regime. It includes ministers, parliamentary secretaries, and all of the ministerial-exempt staff, but the largest group is Governor in Council appointees, which is a huge group of several thousand. That means deputy ministers and heads of boards.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I just wanted to clarify that parliamentary secretaries are in fact included. You may have said that, and I missed it.

I would also just like to comment positively about your efforts at education and outreach. I think it is crucial that we continue to have those ongoing educational opportunities. I certainly forget some of these things, and if there were a periodic update, that would be helpful.

I would also concur with the idea of having you come to us with a prepared list of your recommendations for how we should deal with this problematic area of gifts.

Finally, Mr. Chair, if it's appropriate, I would move that we approve the forms that are here before us so that Ms. Dawson can get on with her work. Or is it premature to have a motion for that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I still have speakers on the list on forms, but I am at the will of the committee, of course. That's what I do.

Monsieur Guimond.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

My questions are not about forms. You would like to deal immediately with this issue, but I have questions about other matters, specifically about gifts and travel.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Does anybody have anything left on forms?

Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

With due respect to my colleague Mr. Albrecht, I would suggest that since, as Marcel Proulx pointed out, Mr. Reid is the only remaining member of that subcommittee who still sits on the current committee, and even though I gave an accurate report, it might be wise, just for the comfort level of all here, if we waited to make a motion to approve the forms until Mr. Reid is here. If he could expand on what the committee looked at when determining what forms would be appropriate, he could give us that level of information. I'd feel a little more comfortable, personally, if I had even a verbal report from Mr. Reid. Then we could approve the forms.

If that's going to prove to cause too much of a delay, then maybe we could deal with it now, and I will bend to the will of the committee on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Madame DeBellefeuille, do you have a point on that?

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Mr. Reid mentioned that the subcommittee report was unanimous. I think Ms. Dawson has been waiting for these forms for a year and a half. Perhaps it would be unreasonable to put this matter off any longer, since things are quite hectic right now and we're preventing you from continuing your work.

We should behave like responsible individuals and move the adoption of the forms. That would allow Ms. Dawson to do her job and that would help Members abide by the rules. We're talking about forms here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

I'm certainly agreeable to that.

I understand, according to one of my staff members, that prorogation has just been granted. Therefore, if we are able to deal with and approve the forms now, I'm all for that. Otherwise we'll be waiting another month and a half or something before we come back.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I have no official notice that that is happening, so we can carry on.