Evidence of meeting #27 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was citizens.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patrick Boyer  As an Individual

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I'd like to call to order the 27th meeting of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Today we're again reviewing the Referendum Act.

We have a small amount of in camera committee business at the end of this meeting, so we will excuse our witness before our allotted time is up, but let's give him his due and let him answer a lot of questions.

Thank you, Dr. Boyer, for all the help you've given so far. In my spare time I've been trying to read your books, and I'm thankful for the number of pictures in some of them. But thank you very much for that.

We will start with an opening statement, if we could, please—the shorter the better, because the members all have questions for you—and we'll move on from there.

11:05 a.m.

Patrick Boyer As an Individual

Thank you very much, Chair and members of the committee. It's an honour to be back on Parliament Hill and to be invited to appear before you.

The work you've undertaken with reviewing the Referendum Act, when I look at the proceedings already held, indicates that a lot of the effort is focused on dealing with technical aspects of the existing law and bringing matters up to date in terms of regulations.

My main submission this morning is that busy MPs who have many demands on their time have a fundamental decision to make—that is, whether your work in the coming weeks and your recommendation flowing from this committee to the House will be merely one of addressing regulations, technical updates, and tinkering with the existing 1992 act, or rather, whether you'll take this opportunity on behalf of the people of Canada, and indeed the Parliament of Canada, to move to do a larger act that will serve our country as a democracy far better, far longer, and leave you with a sense of accomplishment for the time you've spent, that you have not simply worried about knitting together regulations and technical details but have in fact equipped this country with the democratic infrastructure for consultation with the citizens on fundamental ballot questions.

It's very important that this review is being undertaken by your committee, because not only does it mean that Parliament is no longer in violation of one of its own statutes—a time limit for in fact carrying out this review—but, far more important, what is required in putting together legislation to affect the democratic processes is best carried out at a time of calm deliberation. Too many times the laws governing referendums in this country have been enacted by provincial legislatures, and by Parliament itself, on the very eve of those contentious issues coming before the electorate, a time when feelings were heightened and judgment was influenced by the temperature of the hour.

Nothing could be better than this time that you have now in the coming weeks for careful deliberation. That is why I would submit that a possibility for the committee is to consider a recommendation for a comprehensive Canada referendum act, rather than a short act that you're looking at now, the 1992 act, with significant cross-reference to the Canada Elections Act, extraordinary delegation of powers to well-intended and well-functioning officials who nevertheless are saddled with delegated power, trying to work these sections together. It will serve the country, the election officials, and parliamentarians themselves so much better to have the Canada Elections Act, a current up-to-date statute governing elections to our House of Commons, and, parallel to that, a second separate statute, the Canada referendum act, which will be a complete, self-contained code for governing that process, with its many similarities to provisions under the Canada Elections Act but also great differences.

Moving quickly, Chair and members of the committee, because I know you have questions, I appreciate the ruling of the chair that allowed me to see in advance of this morning's hearing the brief prepared by Michel Bédard from the parliamentary information and research branch. The fundamental point there that I want to recommend is that a single statute that is comprehensive will in fact address many of the points raised in this work—from umbrella committees, to spending levels, to the exercise of democratic rights, harmonization with provincial referendum acts, and so on—and we can get into the details of that.

To conclude, I would like to say that what you have before you in the form of the 1992 Referendum Act—and the version I have here is chapter 30 from the 1992 Statutes of Canada current to October 28 of this year—would appear to be a slim statute. There's no particular merit in being large or small. The real merit is in the comprehensiveness, clarity, and efficiency of the legislation. In fact, this is not the Referendum Act you have before you.

This is how big it is, but once you get the consolidated version with the regulations, it's the same 32 pages of the present Referendum Act. This was the consolidated version under which we had the Charlottetown Accord referendum; all the rest of it is the Canada Elections Act, regulations, and cross-references. I invite any person to say that the one with a lot of cross-references is any better than this one, which is in fact the same size.

This was the private member's bill I introduced in the House of Commons in July 1988. It's a comprehensive statute that was reintroduced September 26, 1989, and in every new session of the House, so again in May 1991, and, determined as I was, again on September 23, 1991. This was what Senator Eugene Forsey endorsed on the first introduction. This is the same bill that, as opposition leader, the Honourable Jean Chrétien endorsed, recommended, and urged Parliament to enact because some legislation was needed to be in place for the national referendum.

If there's not time to read it into the record, I would at least refer members to the six origins. This law was drawn from six different sources, which appears in a book some of you may have, called The People's Mandate.

I will conclude with this, Chair, if there's time, but it's to point out and put on the record that this comprehensive statute of 1992—and so things have changed a bit—was drawn from these six sources.

First is the British Referendum Act of 1975, which recognized the important concept of having two umbrella organizations: one for the no and another for the yes side on the question.

Second is Quebec's Referendum Act, which is admirable for its simplicity and clarity of expression, similar to Quebec's Election Act and many other statutes of the National Assembly in the past several decades. It not only picked up the British idea for umbrella organizations, la Loi sur la consultation populaire, but also added important Canadian context elements regarding financing and registration of referendum groups.

Third was the earlier bill that had been introduced in 1978 in the House of Commons by the Honourable Marc Lalonde on behalf of the Trudeau government. That dealt with many essentials for nationwide voting in Canada, such as preparing the voters' list, conducting the vote, broadcasting rules, campaign financing, offences, and time zone differences.

The fourth source I drew on for this bill were several ideas I came across when writing a book I did not inflict on you. This was a 1982 book called Lawmaking by the People. That includes the legal provisions by which citizens themselves can initiate a referendum. This is the initiative process.

Fifth, I added some provisions, such as those for the publicity pamphlets, drawing from the 1912 Saskatchewan Direct Legislation Act. That's where both sides have equal say in a publication that the chief electoral official sends to all citizens so they all have information from both sides of the campaign. Those were incorporated in the bill.

Sixth, and finally, were provisions from the amendments the Mulroney government had proposed, major amendments in 1986 to the Canada Elections Act dealing, essentially, with equality rights provisions. Unfortunately, they were not enacted at that time. As well, I picked up a number of recommendations from the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada, Jean-Marc Hamel

So all of that was incorporated in that bill. When it came time for the government, finally and reluctantly, to realize that with three provinces going to have referenda on the Charlottetown Accord--Quebec, Alberta, and B.C.--it was inappropriate to have two classes of Canadian citizens: those who could vote to ratify the country's Constitution and those who could not. That was when Prime Minister Mulroney realized it was necessary to have in place legislation for a national referendum. That was the time when the bill that you are now considering became a stripped-down version, by private member's bill, limiting it to constitutional questions alone, not including umbrella committees, not effectively dealing with spending limits, and otherwise reflecting an inordinate reluctance on the part of the government--and even more than the government, the Ottawa political culture that favours control and secrecy and directed government--to have a referendum only as the last resort. That was the genesis of the bill you have before you.

I submit to you that you do have an opportunity to now go back to the higher level and give this country, and the citizens of this country, enabling legislation for direct citizen consultation by ballet whenever and if ever that occasion should present itself.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you very much for your informative opening statement.

Madam Jennings, you're up first today.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you, Mr. Boyer, for your presentation. Thank you for agreeing to the invitation of the committee to appear before us.

I have not had an opportunity to read your private member's bill, which you tabled in successive years. My question would be, if you had it to write today, would you draft exactly the same private member's bill? I will take an opportunity during the course of the hearings of this committee to actually read, study, and review your PMB.

What, if anything, would you change in your PMB?

11:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Patrick Boyer

Thank you for the question.

Essentially, I think having drawn on those six sources, I was grounding it very solidly in the tradition of Canadian political and parliamentary and democratic practice. Probably two areas would stand out, though, that would be different in 2010 from 1992.

One relates to the fact that we increasingly function in Parliament, and parliamentarians increasingly function, within cyberspace. Indeed, one of the questions the Chief Electoral Officer, Marc Mayrand, has put to the committee is a problem about printing these ballots for overseas use. When we get to that in later questioning, I think there's a solution to that that is of paramount simplicity, simply relating to the Internet. I would say that yes, that's one area where some of the methods that were talked about in 1992 have been supplanted by the advance in technology, and also the equipment that Canadians have as empowered citizens, with access to much better information. All that should be tapped and not ignored.

The second area would be with relation to the finances. I had recommended and drafted in my legislation before, the requirement for umbrella committees, the need to have even-handedness spending on both the yes and no sides, as in the Quebec act--for example, the Referendum Act in Quebec. Since then, I would endorse the initiatives primarily taken by Prime Minister Chrétien and followed on by Prime Minister Harper to constrain even further the sources, to limit sources simply to voting citizens; in other words, no corporate donations, no union donations, simply those who can vote in the referendum in Canada able to also contribute financially to the support of their chosen side.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

If I'm not mistaken, on the issue of finances, the referendum statutes, as they now stand, are not in alignment with Elections Canada. I could be mistaken, and I would welcome correction if that is the case. If a referendum were being held today, corporations would be able to contribute to the various campaigns. If I am not mistaken, if my reading is correct, you would be recommending that whether it be a completely separate legislative framework for referenda, its own act, or whether it would be a section within the Elections Canada Act that would deal with part III, or whatever we would want to call it, the financing provisions for referenda be harmonized with the existing legislative requirements under Elections Canada for elections.

11:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Patrick Boyer

Yes, that is correct.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Okay. Those are my questions for the moment.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you.

There is about a minute and a half left on that, so now we will swing over.

Mr. Lukiwski.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Boyer, for appearing. I appreciate your comments very much. In fact, I tend to agree with a lot of your observations. My personal assessment, after being involved with the discussions at this committee for the last several meetings, is that we need a separate referendum act. We need a legislative framework separate and apart from what we have now, and it needs to be more highly defined.

I have a lot of questions and only a short period of time, so I will focus on one right now, which is financing. I've put this question to other witnesses who have come forward. Currently there are no limits on the amount of money that a referendum committee or committees can receive. There are limits on the expenses. It would be conceivable, because we've seen this before in other provincial jurisdictions, that the same referendum question could be asked in successive years. In British Columbia, for example, they've had the same question on the method of voting held several years apart.

My question is, if there is no limit on how much a referendum committee or committees can receive in terms of contributions, what is your view if, say, the pro side of a question received $10 million in contributions and their initiative was defeated, if the no side actually won? Would that pro side committee or committees, in your opinion, be allowed--could they be allowed, should they be allowed--to spend whatever is left from the $10 million over the course of succeeding years to try to continue to promote their position in the hope that that question would come back at a future date?

11:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Patrick Boyer

My answer would be no. The reason would be to the extent we are trying to match up the provisions in the Canada Elections Act and the Referendum Act that deal with financing, for the Referendum Act to track the Canada Elections Act there would have to be, first of all, a limit on the amount that anyone could contribute; and second, a limit as to the source of that, namely voting citizens. Then, as you all know very well because you've recently received the audit reports from the last election in October, in terms of what happened to the excess amount that any of you may have been fortunate to have had coming out of the campaign, the options were to give it to the crown, give it to the party, or give it to your riding association, and not to spend it on another election for a period, because what we have under the Canada Elections Act is this very clear timeframe known as the elections period. That is a focused time when special rules apply. That includes the spending of money and soliciting support and actually playing this game.

In my view, if we can tolerate that for the election of people's representatives, then we should tolerate the same regime when it comes to people voting on a ballot question.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

I'm just wondering about process. It's quite clearly defined in the Canada Elections Act where the money goes back to if you have an oversubscription of money coming in contributions. How would you do that in a referendum act? Because there is no riding association or political party, to whom would you give the money back?

11:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Patrick Boyer

Well, that's a good point. You can't go back to the donors.

Mr. Chair and members, here's something for you to consider. The reason it can't go back to donors under the Canada Elections Act is because a tax receipt has already been issued and the money has been aggregated, and you can't sort out between all the donors, pro rata, how it would go back. In 1974, when Parliament enacted the Election Finance Reform Act, it said it can't go back there; that's impossible. But your question is excellent, because in this case you don't have riding associations, for example.

I would just defer on that point to what you and other experts might say. I assume you'll certainly be hearing from the chief electoral officer of British Columbia, who's had experience not only with those two referenda that you mentioned, but there was a third one dealing with aboriginal land claims in British Columbia.

Usually, in my experience in the referendum campaigns, there's not been a lot of money left at the end to worry about, but there has been in some cases. The choice basically, then, I guess, would be to forfeit it to the crown. But if there had not been tax receipts issued, then there would have been a possibility for that money, pro rata, to be returned to the donors.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

On the issue of tax receipts, you're speaking of a marriage of rules contained in the Elections Act to also be contained in the Referendum Act.

11:30 a.m.

As an Individual

Patrick Boyer

As far as it can go, and I don't think it can go all the way. The tax receipts could not work.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

I can't see it either.

11:30 a.m.

As an Individual

Patrick Boyer

You need the discipline of the party structure, the nominated candidates, and the official agents to make that system work. Those tax receipts are basically the Government of Canada saying these people out here can create money--

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

True.

11:30 a.m.

As an Individual

Patrick Boyer

The donors can deduct that from money they're otherwise going to pay on their taxes. But you could never work that through the improvised structure of a referendum campaign.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

You've clarified my point about whether or not a committee that had access money in its coffers could continue to promote its particular position, let's say, between elections or between referendums. Your recommendation would be, no, it should be restricted only to the period of time the referendum is being considered.

So this begs the question, how long should that timeframe be? For example, if a referendum is to be conducted during the same timeframe as a federal or provincial election, should that be the only timeframe allowed for discussion on the referendum--36 days in the case, say, of a provincial election, or 45 days federally? Or do you believe referendum questions should be considered over a longer period of time?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

A quick answer. Mr. Lukiwski's time is up.

11:30 a.m.

As an Individual

Patrick Boyer

First, I don't believe that referenda should be held at the time of general elections, not at all.

Secondly, the time can be even shorter than that for general elections--30 days would be plenty. The main requirement is the technical one, how long it takes the election officials to get everything in place.

The third and final point is on this question about returning the money and so on, about excess funds at the end of the campaign. In considering that, committee members, I think it's important to have to relate that to other provisions that you may or may not want to address, such as spending limits, because they're all woven together.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you.

Monsieur Guimond.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Professor Boyer, you were a Progressive Conservative member of Parliament from 1984 to 1993. You represented the party that was the forerunner of today's Conservative Party. I have a question for your more progressive side. In truth, there are no longer any Progressive Conservatives here, only Conservatives, as evidenced by their bill. My question concerns the right of inmates to vote. As we know, in the Sauvé ruling, the Supreme Court of Canada struck down the provision in the Elections Canada Act prohibiting inmates sentenced to two or more years of imprisonment from voting. This provision was deemed to be unconstitutional.

What is the situation with respect to referendums? According to our interpretation of this provision, inmates are still not able to vote in a referendum. As a Progressive Conservative, what is your take on this issue?

11:30 a.m.

As an Individual

Patrick Boyer

In my opinion, inmates should have the right to vote, just like other citizens. There has been a major shift. In the past, a person sentenced to prison was considered dead under the law. Gradually, certain rights were granted to inmates. Today, we take a different approach, which is reflected in the public policy of the country in which the inmate is being detained. Inmates must now be rehabilitated. To my way of thinking, allowing inmates to participate in the country's electoral process is a very important step in the rehabilitation process. There is nothing unusual about this. In fact, it's quite simple. Inmates were allowed to vote in a referendum held in P.E.I.