Evidence of meeting #28 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Thank you, Chair. I don't think I'll need five.
I just have a question relating to the fact that Ontario doesn't have a general legislative framework for referenda and that a specific statute was created for the last referendum. You mentioned something in your earlier remarks about a citizens' assembly that had been convened prior to the crafting of the legislation. Can you just expand on that a bit? Then can you comment on whether you think it's wise to always craft specific legislation for the upcoming referendum or if you think it's better to have a general framework like we're proposing?
Former Chief Electoral Officer of Ontario, As an Individual
Okay, you've asked a couple of questions. On the citizens assembly, when it got elected in 2003, the government said it would review the electoral system and it would do it following a citizens assembly. So they followed the B.C. model. I think that really lent itself to Mr. Reid's question: instead of putting a bunch of scenarios before the public, let's have a committee of all the people decide what would be the best choice to go up against, first past the post. It did that; it fulfilled that. At the same time, they said if they come up with a different system, they'll have a referendum.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
So the citizens assembly didn't have direct input into the crafting of the legislation, just the crafting of the question?
Former Chief Electoral Officer of Ontario, As an Individual
They didn't have anything to do with the question either, just so you know that, because I remember those days. I needed a question and no one was giving me a question, and it was clear it wasn't going to come from them. It was going to cabinet.
That aside, the second part was around—
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
It was a question of whether we should have specific legislation for every referendum or whether we should have a general framework that would apply to all, so you remove the subjectivity when you're crafting the legislation.
Former Chief Electoral Officer of Ontario, As an Individual
I think, from the administrative perspective, if you had a template and you called on that template and could bring it in when you needed it—and the template was to take the political debate out of it—the frequency isn't there. What's going to happen is you're going to have two acts going side by side, and you'll continually try to amend them. When I've lived through that, you never win. I never win as the administrator because inevitably something's out of whack and then it's too late for us to actually implement certain things. I think you put yourself at risk.
That's my experience. Certainly Mr. Mayrand would be a much better advisor on that. He has to live in that world, and the federal acts are so much more complex than the provincial.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
That's the last speaker on my list. Is there anyone else before we...?
Okay, sure, Mr. Proulx.
Liberal
Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Sir, when we were talking about the registry, you referred to the list of identification cards. Is the Ontario list based basically on the list the federal government or Elections Canada uses?
Former Chief Electoral Officer of Ontario, As an Individual
Yes, it is, most definitely.
Former Chief Electoral Officer of Ontario, As an Individual
Yes, because of the access to databases they have at the federal level. Honestly, I don't know that, provincially, we could come nearly as accurate—
Liberal
Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Oh, excuse me. I think you misunderstood my question, or I didn't explain it. When a voter goes to the poll—
Former Chief Electoral Officer of Ontario, As an Individual
Sorry, ID—no, we're different.
Former Chief Electoral Officer of Ontario, As an Individual
I believe we're different. I think the document list is similar. I think where we might come to a difference--and I don't know for sure, so this is purely opinion--is if you come into the poll, you can bring one or two pieces of ID. We've got your name and address, and we've got your signature to name. So if I've got a hydro bill and you show me a charge card, I think that kind of works.
Former Chief Electoral Officer of Ontario, As an Individual
Is it? I wasn't sure. I know when it was coming around, you had photo ID and there was a lot of discussion. Quite frankly, I didn't follow it all.
Liberal
Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
If somebody doesn't have anything, can a voter from his poll vouch for him?
Former Chief Electoral Officer of Ontario, As an Individual
No, in Ontario you don't have vouching. But the out clause would be that you can take an affidavit that you're qualified.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Anyone else?
Mr. Hollins, thank you very much for coming today and sharing with us your thoughts on this. It's a process we're engaged in, gathering information, and you've helped us with that today.
I'm going to suspend the meeting for a couple of minutes while we change witnesses.