Evidence of meeting #29 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ontario.
A recording is available from Parliament.
December 1st, 2009 / 12:30 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Ontario
If there were any leftover funds, those funds were in fact turned over to the Chief Electoral Officer.
12:30 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer and Chief of Protocol, Legislative Assembly, Elections P.E.I.
In our case, we weren't involved whatsoever in the no or yes campaigns. We had no obligation to file anything with Elections P.E.I.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
So you have no idea if there was any balance of money left over, what happened to it, whether it went into the pockets of the organizers? You have no way to determine what happened to that money?
12:30 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer and Chief of Protocol, Legislative Assembly, Elections P.E.I.
That is correct, but it is our understanding there was very little money involved from the get-go.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
But you have no way of verifying if that was accurate or not?
12:30 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer and Chief of Protocol, Legislative Assembly, Elections P.E.I.
That's correct.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Mr. Blanchet, you said that the best thing would be for a national Referendum Act to be included in the Canada Elections Act, to ensure oversight of financial limits, good governance of campaign finances in a referendum, so it could be strictly controlled, and so the sources of the money, where it came from, what happens, and so on, could be verified.
Allowing the provinces to hold national referendums seems to me to be very problematic because there would be 13 legislative frameworks involved. It's all very well to say that it would be allowed as long as the provincial or territorial legislation was more or less the same as the federal act, but Prince Edward Island, for example, has no control over finances. I know that is also the case in other jurisdictions. I can't see how that could be done.
As well, I find it hard to see how there could be two legislative frameworks to govern referendums: one that decides the question is not so important, so it can be held at the same time as an election campaign, and another that decides the question is so important that the two must not be combined. Whether we like it or not, if the only reason for having two legislative frameworks was that one of them decides that it is not too important and so a referendum can be held at the same time as an election, it would be politicized in any event.
Second, people who are not interested in the question also won't vote. We have seen the example of Ontario. In my opinion, a referendum should not be held at the same time as an election. If our only justification is to increase the turnout, we should find other ways of getting electors interested. If they are not interested, despite all our efforts, it is because the question really does not interest them.
I would like to know your reactions to my position.
12:30 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Élections Québec
It is always a political choice, but it seems preferable, to me, not to hold a referendum at the same time as an election. It is possible to do that where I am, in Quebec, in municipalities. It is open to them to hold certain types of referendums at the same time as a municipal election. It is open to them, but they don't do it. I have seen one municipality in the past that wanted to do this. Ultimately, it decided it was too complicated and decided against it. I think that was a political choice.
Might there be subjects on which the government would want to hold a referendum and an election at the same time? It's possible, but myself, as an election administrator, I can assure you that I prefer it to be separate.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Essensa or Mr. Croken, if you have an opinion on what I said, feel free to express it.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Very short, because you are well past the time.
Perhaps you could add your comments to Mr. Reid's questions.
Mr. Reid.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
My question is for Mr. Blanchet. Let's talk about referendums in municipalities. How many referendums have there been?
12:35 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Élections Québec
There are referendums in municipalities virtually once a week. It must be noted that there has to be a referendum, for example, when a municipality decides to adopt a borrowing bylaw or make a zoning change, if there are enough signatures in a register kept by the city clerk. If enough people sign the register, there will be a referendum, if the municipality still wants to have its planning bylaw or borrowing bylaw adopted. So there are referendums regularly.
There are sometimes also consultative referendums. I recall one case in particular that was somewhat interesting. In the mid-1990s, the issue was whether the City of Sainte-Foy would support holding the Olympic winter games in Quebec City. The City of Sainte-Foy and the then mayor objected fiercely. It organized a referendum to consult the public. Again, there are referendums virtually once a week in Quebec, in the municipalities, but never at the same time as an election.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
What year did this practice start?
12:35 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Élections Québec
The Act respecting elections and referendums in municipalities dates from 1987. So it has certainly been in the law since then. Before that, municipal elections and referendums were governed by various statutes, including the Charter of the City of Québec, the Charter of the City of Montréal, the Cities and Towns Act and the Municipal Code. They all laid down different rules. It was all completely reformed in 1987. The act now applies to all municipalities in Quebec.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
12:35 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Élections Québec
In the case of referendums or elections?
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
I'm talking about referendums at the municipal level.
12:35 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Élections Québec
It depends on the subject. For example, if it's a zoning bylaw, the stakes may be very high, and so the turnout may be high. In cases like that, obviously it's the opponents who vote, to prevent the bylaw being passed. Whether it is a borrowing bylaw or a zoning bylaw, you have to understand that the result of the referendum is binding on the municipal council. In the case of a consultative referendum, however, the turnout may be very low.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Are there any provisions for municipally conducted referendums in the other two provinces, or is that not taken into account in your laws?
12:35 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Ontario
In Ontario there are municipal referendums, but the question has to be approved by the Chief Electoral Officer. There have been some in our larger jurisdictions—the city of Toronto comes to mind. The question was whether they wanted to approve a casino within the boundaries of the city. These questions come from the municipal councils to the Chief Electoral Officer for the approval of the question, and then they're run at the municipal level.
12:35 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer and Chief of Protocol, Legislative Assembly, Elections P.E.I.
It's exactly the same in Prince Edward Island. It's run under the provincial plebiscite act, but the municipal council provides us with the question, and then we run it similar to an election. We've done two.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
12:35 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer and Chief of Protocol, Legislative Assembly, Elections P.E.I.
Yes, two plebiscites from municipalities.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
I gather in Ontario it's more frequent, but not nearly as frequent as it is in Quebec. Is that correct?