Evidence of meeting #10 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was advice.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rob Walsh  Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
Thomas Hall  As an Individual

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Good morning. I'd like to call our meeting to order.

I recognize that we've had a bit of a late start, so we'll see how much we can get through.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(a) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, March 11, 2010, we are studying issues related to prorogation.

Our first witness, as we move forward in this study, is Mr. Walsh, the law clerk and parliamentary counsel. Mr. Walsh, I know that you've sent out some information to all of us, but I'll ask you if you have a bit of an opening statement, and then we'll get to questioning.

11:30 a.m.

Rob Walsh Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My opening statement is basically a condensation of the letter I sent to you and which I believe has been distributed to members of the committee. If that would facilitate matters, I'll make my opening statement, and we could then move to questions, if there are any.

Mr. Chairman, the issue before this committee, as I understand, is whether prorogation should be legally regulated in some manner, and if so, how. The object would to be remove the Prime Minister's de facto exclusive control of prorogation. It's not my place to address the first question, as this is a political matter. But the second question of how prorogation might be regulated involves consideration of the legal means by which this might be done.

Three questions need to be addressed. First, what is the legal nature and status of the power of prorogation? Second, can prorogation be regulated by the House through its Standing Orders or by Parliament through an act of Parliament? Third, if so, would the legislation be enforceable?

The Governor General's power to prorogue Parliament is a common law prerogative power that, according to unwritten constitutional convention, is exercisable by the Governor General on the advice of, or after consultations with, the Prime Minister. It is one of a number of prerogative powers held by the Governor General as the Queen's representative in Canada.

Another prerogative power held by the Governor General that relates directly to Parliament is the power to dissolve Parliament and call a general election.

Over time, more and more of the Crown's prerogative powers have been taken over by statute, that is, have become statutory powers vested in a minister or other public authority. Those remaining as prerogative powers in the hands of the Crown or the Governor General include, among others, the appointment of the Prime Minister and other ministers, dismissal of the Prime Minister, the summoning, dissolution and prorogation of Parliament, the making of treaties, command of the armed forces and the conferring of honours. Examples of prerogative powers taken over by statute include extradition, granting of pardons, citizenship, incorporations and expropriation.

The House of Commons, acting through its Standing Orders, only regulates its proceedings and those of its committees. Prorogation is not a proceeding of the House. The Standing Orders of the House have no binding effect outside the business of the House and its committees. This is not to say, however, that the Standing Orders could not set out some adverse procedural consequences for the government if a prorogation were obtained in a manner contrary to the expressed wish of the House.

Some have expressed the view that legislation governing the Governor General's power of prorogation would be a constitutional amendment and would require the consent of the provinces. In my view, while legislation regulating prorogation might be characterized as a constitutional amendment, this does not mean that the legislation would need to be approved by the provinces. I discuss this further in my letter to you on this matter, Mr. Chair, which I believe has been distributed to members of the committee.

One might avoid this legal argument by limiting the legislation to regulating the Prime Minister's role with respect to prorogation. The Governor General's prerogative power of prorogation is not shared with the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister has only an advisory role with respect to the exercise of this power, albeit a necessary prerequisite by constitutional convention. The advisory role of the Prime Minister is based on an unwritten constitutional political convention. If prerogative legal powers can be overtaken by legislation, it must surely be true that unwritten political rules can be overtaken by legislation.

However, a failure by the Prime Minister to comply with the statutory restrictions imposed on the advisory role of the Prime Minister would not, by itself, invalidate an exercise of the prerogative power of prorogation by the Governor General.

Although it might be possible in theory to draft legislation regulating prorogation, there remains the question of whether such legislation would be enforceable in the courts. Enforceability includes the question of justiciability. The courts consider non-justiciable those matters that do not contain sufficient legal content to enable the court to reach a legal decision on the merits.

The courts have said that the exercise of some prerogative powers, such as the power to dissolve Parliament or to appoint ministers, is not reviewable by the courts because they are not justiciable. Prerogative powers such as the dissolution of Parliament or entering into treaties or taking measures relating to national security, for example, are considered powers that either are political in nature or relate to matters that are not capable of review by a court through a judicial process.

Even if the legislation were drafted in such terms as to present a justiciable issue for the court and the court concluded that the legislation had been violated, there would remain the difficult question of how the court would enforce its decision. Likely, the prorogation would have taken place some months earlier and a new parliamentary session would already be underway. Does the court declare the prorogation invalid, as well as the subsequent parliamentary session and all parliamentary actions up to the time of the court's decision? Or once the court action challenging the prorogation is commenced, should there be no subsequent parliamentary session until the court makes its ruling?

In my view, the only effective way in which prorogation could be made subject to law and taken out of the hands of the Prime Minister in his advisory role to the Governor General is to make a formal constitutional amendment that would set down the circumstances in which the Governor General could prorogue Parliament, with or without the advice of the Prime Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'll be pleased to respond to any questions members may have.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you.

Because of our late start and compressed time, we'll try to do five-minute rounds. I'll be as flexible as I can.

Madam Jennings may start.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you, Mr. Walsh, for your presentation and for the letter in which you explained in great detail your considered view, through the legal lens, of the whole issue of regulating prorogation through either standing orders or legislation of the House of Commons. Your final conclusion is that the only real, effective way would be through a formal constitutional amendment that would limit or proscribe the Governor General's discretionary authority to prorogue Parliament and establish the conditions.

However, you make the point that the Standing Orders only regulate the business of the House, including the committees, and the conduct of its members in the House, and therefore it has no effect outside of the House of Commons. Then you go on to say that through the Standing Orders the House could regulate something “punitive” for a member, who might happen to be a prime minister, who violates the Standing Orders. Could you expand? I'm having difficulty grasping that.

11:35 a.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

The witness used quotation marks for the word “punitive”. I didn't use that word.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

No. That's why I'm saying--

11:35 a.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

I'll give you some examples that are simply illustrative. I'm not for a moment recommending that this is the way the House would want to go.

The House can't legislate through standing orders that the Prime Minister shall not prorogate without first giving notice to the House. But who's to say that the House, in the Standing Orders, can't provide that where prorogation takes place without prior notice to the House, there shall be five additional opposition days in the first supply period in the new session, or no government bill shall be considered for a second reading within 60 days of the opening of the session.

I'm just saying you could put a disincentive into your Standing Orders, I suppose. I'm not recommending this, but I'm saying--

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

I like it.

11:35 a.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

--in theory the House controls its proceedings. It can do what it wants through its Standing Orders to regulate its proceedings. If it wanted to put a disincentive into the Standing Orders to discourage what happened last December, I suppose something along those lines could be done. That's all I meant to say there. There is a possibility of putting a disincentive into your Standing Orders. But standing orders change over time, and all it takes is a change in numbers and what was put in yesterday is gone tomorrow.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you.

Second, there's the real issue of whether or not legislation regulating the Prime Minister's executive authority to ask or advise the Governor General that Parliament be prorogued would be enforceable. Now the quotes are around a term that you yourself used, contrary to when I did that for punitive. That's whether it's “justiciable”. If I'm not mistaken, that is one of the issues that came about in the court decision on the....

11:40 a.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

The fixed-date elections?

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

No. That was one of them, but the other decision had to do with foreign affairs recently. I think it had to do with the Canadian government not requesting no death penalty in the case of a Canadian in the United States. It was very recent. It was with Omar Khadr, but it had to do with foreign affairs and the court ruled that in fact the government had not done everything it should do. It determined that in fact the individual's rights had been violated; however, it left it to the government to come up with the solution.

Would that be a case where the court rules that there is a violation, but because there isn't sufficient law attached to it, a judicial matter, it's not in a position to be able to actually come up with the actual remedy itself?

11:40 a.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

I'm not sure what case you're referring to, but the courts have--

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

The time is up, but go ahead and give a short answer.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

I'll dig it up.

11:40 a.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

I'm not sure what case the member's referring to, Mr. Chair, but where a prerogative power is exercised or not being exercised and it affects the rights of an individual, then you have a charter argument and the courts will look at the exercise or non-exercise of prerogative powers relative to the rights of an individual under the charter.

We're here now about prorogation, and of course it does not concern the charter; it's a matter purely within Parliament. The justiciability issue, in my view, arises generally where the nature of the legislation in question.... The Fixed Election Dates Act, for example, didn't deal directly with the prime ministerial role. It just had a section that said there shall be elections every four years. The argument was made that it necessarily meant that the traditional role of the Prime Minister was overruled by this provision, and the court didn't accept that argument.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Reid.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you.

You made reference to the idea that the Constitution could be amended to permit some kind of restriction on the power of prorogation. As I look at it, there are two ways of accomplishing this, and I'm just wondering which you think is the better.

Section 44 of the amending formula states, and I'm quoting here: “Parliament may exclusively make laws amending the Constitution of Canada in relation to the executive government of Canada or the Senate and House of Commons.” That suggests a unilateral amendment as long as it's done by means of legislation, as opposed to a motion. But then section 41 requires that when dealing with the office of the Queen or the Governor General you have to have the consent of all the provinces as well as of Parliament. I'm just wondering which of the two strikes you as being the likely or more appropriate one.

11:40 a.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

The one raised by some commentators is section 41, where it's suggested that any legislation pertaining to prorogation would affect or relate to the office of the Governor General and therefore require the consent of the provinces.

It's hard to say what the meaning of “in relation to” the office of the Governor General means, because we had the Royal Assent Act, which went through and didn't mandate that royal consent had to be given in a certain way, but allowed royal consent to be given in writing as opposed to the formal procedure in the Senate, but there was no consent from the provinces. Does that relate to the office of the Governor General?

Do you know what I mean?

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

I suppose the implicit understanding was that it related to the powers, as opposed to the technical way in which it's carried out.

11:45 a.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

That's the point. You could argue that--

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

By the way, I was the only person in the House of Commons who didn't support that. I denied unanimous consent to that, but that's a separate issue.

11:45 a.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

The relation to the office of the Governor General might be in this context of section 41 contained within the Constitution Act of 1982, which, by the way, relates to the Constitution of Canada, which is defined in section 52. You can argue that section 41 relates only to those provisions in the Constitution Act 1867 and 1982 that relate to the office of the Governor General.

But I can't tell you where the line is between the office of the Governor General and the powers of the Governor General. My discussion, my paper regarding focusing on the Prime Minister's role, was as a possible strategy to avoid that argument. If all you're legislating is the Prime Minister's role, arguably, you're not touching the Governor General's powers or the office of the Governor General and section 41 wouldn't apply.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Right.

A suggestion has also been made that a codicil could be added to the letters patent that King George VI issued in 1947 relating to the transfer of powers to the Governor General. Somehow, this could be so designed as to, I suppose, instruct the Governor General not to accept certain kinds of advice.

Is there any merit to that suggestion, in your opinion?