Evidence of meeting #11 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was general.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Errol Mendes  Professor, Constitutional and International Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Peter Russell  Professor Emeritus, Department of Political Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual

12:15 p.m.

Prof. Peter Russell

Wouldn't it be useful to think carefully about the highest court in the land drawing on the wisdom not of only Canadian constitutional scholarship but Commonwealth and British constitutional scholarship on how we think it should be done? I think it's worth a minute or two.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Sir, I'm not questioning--

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Go ahead.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

I think we can all agree that we would like to hear the rest of what Professor Russell has to say, so therefore we can all agree to give him a bit more time than what we had originally anticipated.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Okay.

12:15 p.m.

Prof. Peter Russell

Thank you very much.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

I agree with Mr. Reid.

May I also suggest that in terms of asking questions of Mr. Reid, if we are unable to do so--

12:15 p.m.

Prof. Peter Russell

I'm “Russell”.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Oh, I'm sorry, Professor Russell.

I suggest that if we are unable to ask questions of Professor Russell, we invite him back.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We could do both of those things. Thank you. It's at the will of the committee.

12:15 p.m.

Prof. Peter Russell

I'm almost done. I'm sorry, I'm a long-winded guy.

I wanted to apply that Supreme Court methodology to the issue before us: conventions concerning prorogation.

First, there are plenty of precedents of uncontested requests for prorogation, but to the best of my knowledge there have been no situations analogous to either 2008 or 2009, both situations where prorogation was contested because its purpose appeared to be to avoid the government's accountability to Parliament. Nor was there any indication in those uncontested precedents that the actors in the precedents--that is, the government and opposition political leaders--believed they were bound by a rule that it is legitimate for the government to advise prorogation at any time, for any length of time, and for any reason whatsoever.

If such a rule were to be put forward, it is difficult to think of the reason that might be given for such a rule other than that in a democracy the Prime Minister should always get his way. But I comment that while such a reason might be considered appropriate in a democracy in which the head of government, the Prime Minister, is directly elected by the people--that might be all right--it is not appropriate in a parliamentary democracy where the Prime Minister depends for his licence to govern on the confidence of and accountability to Parliament.

So I would have to conclude that we do not have a constitutional convention governing contested requests for prorogation.

The next page has a couple of suggestions on where you might go.

The first is to realize that constitutional conventions do not always arise gradually, historically, through precedents. They can come from an agreement made by the relevant political actors on a grave matter of great importance, a disputed matter. I give the example of the Balfour Declaration in 1926, that in effect changed the British Empire into the British Commonwealth of Nations, and an agreement on the equal status of the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, Eire, New Zealand, and South Africa. That was done through a conference, a meeting of prime ministers. They issued a declaration that they all agreed to. It was fundamental in changing the constitutional status of these countries.

In paragraph 11, I deal with the one motion we've had during this contested period, the one indication of a possible basis for a convention. As you all know, on March 17 of this year, the House of Commons passed a motion that was moved by the Honourable Jack Layton requiring that the Prime Minister seek the consent of the House of Commons before advising of a prorogation of more than seven days.

This motion cannot, in my view, be regarded as a constitutional convention, because it was opposed by the Prime Minister and members of the government caucus. The Prime Minister in particular is one of the key actors involved in prorogation, and he would not feel bound by the Layton motion. But that motion, I suggest--always hopeful--could be an important step towards establishing a constitutional convention, if it becomes the basis for discussing, in this committee or a special committee struck for the purpose, the possibility of an agreement on conditions that should apply to prime ministerial advice to prorogue.

So far we have not really heard what conditions, if any, the Conservatives think should apply to the rendering of such advice. Hearing the government's case would be a very valuable thing for Canada.

If the parties did agree on rules that should govern prime ministerial advice to the Governor General to prorogue, in my view such an agreement would be a constitutional convention. You would have created a constitutional convention, and as such it would not be legally binding. Constitutional conventions, as our Supreme Court has said, will not be enforced by the court, but they could be identified by the court. They can settle arguments about them, but they won't enforce them. Such a convention would have great political force and it would in all likelihood be complied with by the Governor General.

Finally, I've heard, as one does reading the papers and Hansard, of a possibility of the Standing Orders of the House being changed, possibly along the lines of something like the Layton motion, through a majority vote in the House but with the Conservatives, the government caucus members, still opposing the motion. What about that?

Well, of course my view is it's not a constitutional convention, but such an addition to the Standing Orders would surely be as binding on the Prime Minister as all other standing orders are. Failure of a Prime Minister to observe this new standing order, if one were added to the Standing Orders, could result in a ruling or a finding of contempt of Parliament and a possible defeat of the government on a non-confidence motion.

According to constitutional convention, a Governor General would be entitled to dismiss a Prime Minister who refused to resign or ask for a dissolution--I should have added that--after losing a vote of no confidence in the House.

I've put my own view in the final paragraph, and I thank you for the time to get here.

I believe it would be best for Canada to have the rules governing prime ministerial requests for prorogation settled in a consensual manner by our elected political leaders. Closing down Parliament, the people's house, the democratic institution of this country, is not a routine event. It's an act of great importance to parliamentary democracy in Canada. Canadians will be ill-served by their elected representatives if they're unable to reach an agreement on this matter and leave the country vulnerable to another grave political constitutional crisis with no rule in place to govern the crisis.

Thank you.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you, Professor.

We have a bit of time, so Madam Jennings, you're up first.

Let's try to be as succinct with our questions and answers as we can, and we'll see how many people get a chance.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Professor Russell. I apologize for mixing up your name earlier. There's no excuse for that, so I abjectly apologize.

I understand clearly what your position is. I also understand that, in your expert opinion, a standing order that would prescribe conditions that need to be met for the Prime Minister to request prorogation would not constitute, in your view, a constitutional convention.

12:25 p.m.

Prof. Peter Russell

Not if it weren't agreed to by one of the key players, which is the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister's party colleagues.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Okay. So if it were a simple majority vote--

12:25 p.m.

Prof. Peter Russell

No.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

--but there were not votes from all parties represented in the House in favour, then it would not constitute a....

12:25 p.m.

Prof. Peter Russell

Yes.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Okay.

12:25 p.m.

Prof. Peter Russell

I'm going very much by the Supreme Court, which said the key actors must feel bound by the rule.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Yes.

My next question is this. If there were such standing orders and supporting legislation, adopted by the majority of the House, possibly rejected by one party--it could be the ruling party, it could be another party--would the two together constitute constitutional convention?

12:25 p.m.

Prof. Peter Russell

In my judgment, no, not if the Prime Minister and the particularly important party he leads have opposed it.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

But then what do you have where, for instance, it's adopted and all parties agree? Then it's a conventional--

12:25 p.m.

Prof. Peter Russell

Oh, if all parties agree, terrific. I would prefer not to have legislation, if all parties agree.

Once you get into legislation, you risk two things. One is that you risk appeals to the court to interpret the legislation, and in this kind of matter, with all due respect to our judges in Canada, including the nine on the Supreme Court, I don't think they should be called upon to settle these disputes, which arise typically soon after an election. To be doing the sort of Bush-Gore act and not knowing who's governing, while huge cases are argued before the Supreme Court of Canada for weeks or for months, sounds to me like a bad idea.

The other thing is that once you get into legislation, you may be on the edge of at least an argument that you're somehow changing the powers of the crown by law, by a formal statute. That gets you into the constitutional amendment issue that any change in the powers of the monarchy, the crown, the crown's representative in Canada, requires unanimous consent of all the provinces.

I'm not saying it would automatically, but you would get people saying, “That statute looks to us like a disguised attempt to amend the Constitution by law.”