Evidence of meeting #12 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prorogation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Benoît Pelletier  Full Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Ned Franks  Professor Emeritus, Department of Political Studies, Queen's University, As an Individual

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I'd like to call to order meeting number 12 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. We're just a little late getting started. Immigration was in here before us this morning, solving the country's problems.

We are continuing our study related to issues of prorogation. Our first witness this morning is Mr. Pelletier from the University of Ottawa. I'm glad you travelled all the way here today for us.

As is our norm, we'll have Professor Pelletier give us a bit of an opening statement. We have one hour with each of our witnesses today, so we'll probably use five-minute rounds to start off with, but let's see how well we can do. We'll get started.

Professor Pelletier, I give the floor to you.

11:10 a.m.

Prof. Benoît Pelletier Full Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for inviting me to appear today to discuss a matter of great importance, as we know: prorogation. I was asked to address the issue from a relatively theoretical perspective. As I understand it, there is no bill under consideration at this time. Consequently, we will essentially be looking at the parameters of prorogation and trying to identify its specific characteristics. We also want to look into the future and try to see what limits could be placed on the Crown's power to prorogue Parliament. Or, we may want to see—again, looking to the future, how prorogation might—or might not—be used in future.

First of all, with your permission, I would like to make some preliminary comments that are related, to a greater or lesser extent, to the theme of prorogation. In many cases, I will not be telling you anything that you do not already know. Still, it is important to make a couple of points when examining the issue of prorogation.

First of all, parliaments, including the current one, basically have three functions. The fist two are well-known; the third, which I would like to address, is overlooked more often than not.

Of course, there is the major function of passing legislation, which is central to the legislative process.

The second one is monitoring the government, its decisions, its actions and, of course, its spending, etc.

The third major function which, as I said, is overshadowed more often than the other two, is Parliament's role in legitimizing the government.

In fact, it is Parliament which gives the government its legitimacy. Indeed, that role is central to the principle of responsible government. The principle of responsible government, or ministerial responsibility, means that, in order to retain its political legitimacy, the government must constantly enjoy the support of a majority of elected members of Parliament. This suggests that there is, in fact, a direct connection between parliamentary activity and a government's legitimacy.

In my opinion, it goes much further than just the principle of ministerial responsibility. Ministerial responsibility—when it applies—is brutal and stringent in its application. If the government loses the confidence of the elected members and, in most cases, when the issue is an important one or one where the House of Commons' confidence in the government is at stake, the government must offer its resignation to the Governor General. Those are the most obvious cases where the principle of ministerial responsibility applies—which, once again, is connected to the government's legitimization by Parliament.

I said that it goes further than that. Indeed, the weaker the Parliament—and I did not say “inactive”, nor did I talk about dissolution or the triggering of a general election, because that is not necessary—the less it is able to fulfill its functions or responsibilities. The less Parliament is valued, the less likely it is that Canadians will have a positive view of Parliament and, normally, the less political legitimacy the government can claim. In other words, there is a direct connection between Parliament's legitimacy and Parliament's effectiveness, and the legitimacy a government can claim.

Consequently, a government should normally be concerned about the health of Parliament. It should, at the very least, be respectful of parliamentary activity, because its own political legitimacy to govern is at stake.

The second major observation is that the separation of powers here in Canada is flexible. As you know, in our parliamentary system, which takes its inspiration from the Westminster model, government members—at least, the vast majority of its members—are also elected by the people, and therefore sit in Parliament where they are accountable for their decisions and their actions.

So, in Canada, we have a flexible separation of powers, unlike the system in other countries, particularly the United States, where the separation of powers is a little more rigid. In this country, the parliamentary system is characterized by the coexistence of powers, as some say. Others even talk about combined powers—in other words, a kind of cooperation that must exist between the executive and the legislative branches in order for Parliament to function.

To ensure that cooperation—or at the very least, the harmonious coexistence of the legislative and executive branches—there are a number of mechanisms—what are known as checks and balances. In other words, Parliament has a number of ways of either punishing the government, or limiting its ambitions—or, at the very least, imposing its will on the government. The reverse is also true: the government has a number of ways of punishing Parliament, making it more docile, balancing its influence, calling on it to show wisdom or simply imposing its will on Parliament.

In the first category, of course, there are mechanisms which Parliament can access to limit the executive power. There is the question period—as you know—parliamentary committees, and the process for passing legislation, which necessarily leads to debate, discussion, amendments and votes. There is also the process for approving government spending, as well as the principle of ministerial responsibility. That is Parliament's most effective recourse when it comes to punishing a government. Indeed, ministerial responsibility allows it to withdraw its confidence in the government and, on major, important questions, to force the government to resign.

On the other side, as I said, the government also has ways whereby it can impose its will on Parliament. The two most well-known and, probably, most effective mechanisms are dissolution and prorogation. By extension, I could add a third mechanism, which is summoning Parliament. Therefore, the government has two important tools at his disposal to discipline Parliament or, at least, impose its will on Parliament—once again, they are prorogation and dissolution. By extension, we could add a third mechanism, which is summoning Parliament.

That brings me to a third point. We are part of a system where the Prime Minister has boundless power. Of course, that can be said for the Executive as a whole, but it is obviously the case for the Prime Minister. The latter has a huge amount of power. I do not need to describe it. I think that you are well aware of the extent of that power. And that prime ministerial power is necessarily seen by some Canadians as a source of imbalance in the power relationship between Parliament and the Executive. As a country, if we were to move in any particular direction, in my opinion, it would be to further limit the power of the Executive, as opposed to further limiting the power of Parliament. In other words, if there was a need to rebalance the forces within our system, that rebalancing should not involve greater government control over parliamentary activities; on the contrary, it should mean a strengthening of Parliament's powers in relation to the Executive.

My fourth observation is that the power to prorogue Parliament is a prerogative of the Crown.

Because it is a prerogative, that power should in theory—and I emphasize the words “in theory”—be subject to certain limits. However, I will qualify that quite considerably, as you will see. This power can be limited by legislation, unless it can be demonstrated that the prorogation power enjoys formal constitutional protections. What are those prerogatives? Basically, they are powers that the Crown is able to exercise simply because they have not been removed by Parliament.They are therefore powers derived from that period where all the powers of the state were vested in the sovereign. Obviously, we are going back to our ancestor, the United Kingdom. Slowly, the sovereign's powers were removed in favour of Parliament. By its very nature, a prerogative can be limited or circumscribed by legislation. That prerogative only exists insofar as Parliament has not appropriated that power. It only exists insofar as Parliament has agreed that it should remain with the Crown, unless—and this is an important distinction—it is not possible to demonstrate that the prerogative—in this case, the power to prorogue Parliament—enjoys constitutional protection.

So, the question is whether, in the Canadian context, the power to prorogue Parliament enjoys such constitutional protection. If the answer is yes, that means that no legislation can limit or abolish that power. At the very least, it cannot be limited in such a way as to alter it. If the answer is no—in other words, if the prorogation power does not enjoy constitutional protection of any kind—the normal rule is that legislation can limit the Crown's prerogative to prorogue Parliament.

One initial observation can be made. Unlike the power to dissolve Parliament, nowhere in the Canadian Constitution or the Constitution Act, 1867, for example, is there any mention of explicit constitutional protection for the prorogation power. The reason I say “unlike the power to dissolve Parliament”, is that this specific power is laid out in the Constitution Act, 1867. The legislation refers to it. Of course, that is connected to the maximum term of a Parliament, which is five years, as you know. That has not only been the case since the Charter was adopted in 1982. The provision providing for a maximum term of five years for Parliament has been in place since 1867. The power to dissolve the House of Commons is connected to the maximum term of an election mandate—the term for Parliament—and means that the Governor General can dissolve the House of Commons before the five-year term is up, if the circumstances warrant, obviously. However, there is absolutely no explicit protection for the power to prorogue Parliament.

At the same time, the Constitution does provide that the House of Commons must meet at least once a year. There must be one session every year, at least. Like the other one, that provision does not only flow from the Constitution Act, 1982; it was also part of the Constitution Act, 1867. That is all there is that can in any way be connected to the power to prorogue Parliament; however, in this particular case, the connection is a very indirect one.

Does that mean that the prorogation power enjoys no constitutional protection? That is difficult to say, because there is no explicit constitutional protection; at the same time, it could be argued that it enjoys tacit constitutional protection.

In my opinion, prorogation can be seen as a component of the separation of powers in government. The separation of powers is obviously a pillar of the Canadian state, and there is every reason to believe that the Supreme Court of Canada would recognize that even the principle of the separation of powers is based on the Constitution. In other words, the separation of powers enjoys tacit constitutional protection, and because the power to prorogue is a critical component of the separation of powers, it, too, enjoys that same constitutional protection.

None of this is absolutely clear; we are dealing with assumptions. But this is one that I, personally, subscribe to. Therefore, I support the theory that the separation of powers enjoys implicit constitutional protection and that, by that very fact, the power to prorogue Parliament, which is connected to the separation of powers, enjoys that same protection.

What is the basis for that protection? It may be derived from the preamble of the Constitution Act, 1867, which originally—in 1867—gave Canadians a Constitution that rested on the same principles as that of Great Britain. Clearly, under the preamble, there is protection for the separation of powers—this was a recognized principle in the United Kingdom in 1867—and, by extension, for the power to prorogue. As I said, that power is an essential component of the separation of powers.

Were it not derived from the preamble, the Supreme Court of Canada could find that the separation of powers is an inherent constitutional principle and, by that very fact, that the power to prorogue, which is one of its essential conditions, also enjoys inherent constitutional protection.

These inherent constitutional principles can be found, in particular, in the Reference re Secession of Quebec, a ruling handed down by the Supreme Court of Canada in 1998, as you know. Of course, the Court did not identify the separation of powers as an inherent principle in that ruling, but the logic followed by the Supreme Court in the Reference re Secession of Quebec, which relies on the identification of inherent constitutional principles, would, in my view, support the theory that the separation of powers is also an inherent constitutional principle—even though, as I just said, the Supreme Court did not recognize it as such in the above-mentioned reference. However, no one believes that the principles identified by the Court in that reference are exhaustive. Therefore, there could be others, including the separation of powers. If the separation of powers does enjoy such implicit constitutional protection, either under the preamble of the Constitution Act, 1867, or as an inherent constitutional principle, the odds are that the power to prorogue, which is an essential component of the separation of powers, enjoys exactly the same protection.

That leads me to the next point. If it is true that the prorogation power enjoys constitutional protection under the theory I have just put forward—either through the preamble of the Constitution Act, 1867 or as an inherent constitutional principle—then how can this constitutional principle be amended or revoked? If this principle truly enjoys the constitutional protection I have just described, the odds are that it can only be amended or revoked in accordance with subsection 41(a) of the Constitution Act, 1982, which provides for unanimous consent with respect to anything dealing with “the office of the Queen, the Governor General and the Lieutenant Governor”.

It is important to remember, however, that were we to conclude that, contrary to my claim, the prorogation power does not enjoy implicit or tacit constitutional protection, subsection 41(a) would probably not apply, as it deals with amendments to the Constitution of Canada. In that case, a simple Act of Parliament could limit, and even do away with the power to prorogue—the Crown prerogative that I described previously. However, if it is given constitutional status, as I believe it has, any amendment should be subject to the rule of unanimous consent laid out in subsection 41(a).

So, as I see it, that is pretty much the constitutional setting, so to speak, as regards the power to prorogue Parliament. In addition to that constitutional setting, there are, of course, a whole series of questions which are political in nature. For example, could too frequent use of the power to prorogue Parliament have the effect of weakening Parliament and destabilizing parliamentary activity? And does it not ultimately place too much power in the hands of the Executive, compared to the Legislative Branch? I honestly believe it does. I think that repeated, regular or even annual use of prorogation in our political system—specific to Canada—would run the risk of making Parliament extremely weak in relation to the government. That is even more so the case because, as I said earlier, our system is one where the powers of the Prime Minister and the Executive are already immeasurable, and probably excessive compared to those of Parliament.

If we were to do something in this area, in my opinion, any actions take us in the opposite direction. In other words, we should not be increasing the government's power, as I mentioned earlier, by allowing it to prorogue the House of Commons on a regular, or even, annual basis. It should be the opposite. The powers of Parliament should be strengthened in relation to those of the Executive and the government.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you for laying out the arguments for us, and let's see if we can get some thoughts going on some questions.

Monsieur Proulx, are you going first for us today?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Great. Let's try five minutes and see if we can get a good round in, and if there's a bit of time after that, we'll do some--

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Or if my questions are good, you'll give me more time?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

You know I always do.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Pelletier, thank you for agreeing to appear before the Committee this morning. After hearing your comments this morning, I have no doubt that many people at this table will want to register for your courses at the university. It is a very complicated subject, but a very interesting one as well.

Let us assume, Mr. Pelletier, that your theory is correct—note that I said “let us assume”. Are there any options open to us, without our necessarily limiting the right to prorogue Parliament? Could we attach consequences to prorogation? This has been raised in previous meetings. For example, if the government decided to prorogue Parliament, when Parliament returned, for a certain number of months, the government would not be entitled to private members' business or other options it might normally have in the House. It would be kind of… I don't mean an obstacle. But it would be something that would cause the government to reflect or would perhaps carry with it certain consequences, because Parliament had been prorogued. The government would be forced to consider the pros and cons before deciding whether it was worth it.

11:30 a.m.

Full Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Prof. Benoît Pelletier

In the answer I am going to give you, I am assuming that my own theory is the correct one, even though I am not entirely sure of that.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

That is what I said, “let us assume that your theory is correct”.

11:30 a.m.

Full Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Prof. Benoît Pelletier

Indeed, no expert appearing before you could discuss these issues with total certainty, unless his primary goal was to convince you. It is impossible to discuss these matters with complete certainty, because there are no provisions that expressly deal with this.

In my view, the very definition of a prerogative is that it can be exercised on a discretionary basis. When a prerogative can no longer be exercised in certain circumstances prescribed by law, it is no longer a prerogative. For a prerogative to be a prerogative and remain so, I believe it must respect the Crown's discretion—in other words, the Prime Minister's discretion as senior advisor to the Governor General. So, the Crown's discretion to exercise that power, when it sees fit, must be respected.

Could there be an annual prorogation, such as in Great Britain? Probably, but that would not prevent other prorogations from occurring during the year. Insofar as the Crown's discretion to prorogue Parliament when it sees fit is respected, in my view, the nature of the prerogative remains intact. So, that was my first point.

The second point is that the limitations you referred to must not be such that they would alter the prerogative. They must not, in terms of their number, significance or scope, be of a nature that would ultimately invalidate the power to prorogue Parliament. Basically, any conditions placed on the exercise of that power must not be so onerous that, once again, they alter the spirit of a prerogative which is linked to the Crown's discretion.

However, is it conceivable to introduce restrictions that would mean a government would suffer the consequences of proroguing Parliament? In my opinion, that is certainly conceivable. Again, it would be possible only if the prorogation power were not altered. In other words, those restrictions must be sufficiently explicit on paper for one to conclude that the prorogation power is not altered and that what is at stake is not a Crown prerogative.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you.

We're right on five, so let's see if we can get a whole round in.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

It was a good question.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

It was a great question, and did you see the answer you got? It was really good.

Mr. Reid, it's up to you.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I see you've brought your own timer today. You're not trusting the chair.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

I don't trust myself, Mr. Chair. I want to make sure I keep within my time limits.

Welcome, Professor Pelletier. It's a pleasure to have you here.

One of the things I thought would be helpful for us as we go through this process of looking at prorogation, and legitimate limits on prorogation, is looking for some comparison elsewhere, in particular examples from other Westminster systems, other countries that use the same system, and more particularly what has happened in the experience of Canada's provinces.

I find we don't get as much useful material as we might hope to find. The phenomenon of repeated minority governments is something that doesn't occur that often, either in Canadian federal practice--it did occur in the 1960s and back in the 1920s--or in provincial practice. I think I'm right in saying that in Quebec there's only been one minority government in the past century. Is that correct?

11:35 a.m.

Full Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Prof. Benoît Pelletier

That is correct; unfortunately, there was one.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

All the discussion about prorogation in a highly disciplined party system is irrelevant when you've got a majority government, which is the majority of Canada's experience both federally and provincially.

Obviously, had there been a majority government, say, as of December 30, nobody could have argued on prorogation, “Well, this is being done in order to prevent committee hearings from taking place; it's something the government doesn't want to have too many hearings into, and those committee hearings have been shut down simply by the government ordering its members, who form the majority of that committee, not to call for a meeting.” That would have been the end of that.

Likewise, the prorogation that took place a year earlier would obviously not have occurred. The parties representing a minority in the Parliament could hardly have said, “We have a coalition that we would like to now replace the government.”

I actually am interested in your provincial experience, although that was a very brief government. I don't know if there were any prorogations.

11:35 a.m.

Full Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Prof. Benoît Pelletier

No, there were not.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Okay. Was that about two years or a year and a half?

11:35 a.m.

Full Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Prof. Benoît Pelletier

It was 2007 to 2008, for a year and a half, without any prorogation.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

The question I have here is really more conceptual. I think I'm probably going to ask the same question to Professor Franks.

Isn't the fundamental problem we have here, at a conceptual level, that we are trying to find a proper use for a tool that most of the time in our constitutional history has been used in an utterly different way under utterly different circumstances that simply aren't relevant to our current circumstances? Aren't we really struggling, then, not with the question of how to prevent prime ministerial dictatorship, which is going to occur anyway when you have a majority government, just as it does in every province, but rather we are trying to deal with how to make minority governments work better, but we haven't actually agreed on how minority governments ought to actually work?

I'll throw that question out to you, and you can answer it when you like.

11:40 a.m.

Full Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Prof. Benoît Pelletier

I'm not sure I'll answer as fully as maybe you would like me to, but first I'd say that Canadians now react very strongly to the use of the power to prorogue, and it's quite surprising, because there have been many prorogations in Canada's history--more than 105. So why is it that the population now reacts so strongly when prorogations happen, as was the case last December and January?

It might be because now the population feels that the power of the executive has become too strong vis-à-vis the power of Parliament. I would say that many Canadians--not all of them, of course, because some people are not interested in these questions and are too cynical about Parliament itself to really defend it or protect it--are extremely preoccupied by the overwhelming power of the executive compared to that of Parliament. They would like some kind of limits on the executive powers.

Some people, I would say, do support the idea that this Parliament brings limits to the power to prorogue, that is, the power of the crown but mostly of the government, as you know, and of the Prime Minister. But then I would say to be very careful, because this is still a prerogative, and it should stay as it is, in my view. Moreover, I said before that it has some implicit or tacit constitutional protections, so I think we should be very careful not to react too spontaneously, but to examine all these questions in depth, as this committee is doing, without any pressure from the outside.

This being said, what is interesting, though, is to see that in the United Kingdom there is an annual prorogation. Can you believe it? The country that gave birth to Canada is a country that now has an annual prorogation, but there's not the same political context. I would say the party line, the party discipline, is not what it is in Canada. In Canada the party discipline is stronger than what exists in the United Kingdom. Because of the party discipline and the power of the Prime Minister and the executive over the members of Parliament, the population would like to see the situation being reversed and Parliament being reaffirmed vis-à-vis the government, and if that's the case, then an annual prorogation would not be the solution at all. It would be worse because it would strengthen the power of the executive, vis-à-vis Parliament, when most Canadians want the opposite.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you.

We went a little long there, but I thought we were getting a good answer, so we went with it.