Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 5th, 2010

[Mary Dawson]

Confidentiality is very important when it involves an individual. When I'm talking about transparency, I try to make my processes and my activities as transparent as I possibly can.

With respect to Ms. Guergis, I have confirmed that there is an investigation ongoing, at the request of one of the members of the New Democratic Party--Ms. Davies, I think. And really, there's no more I can say about the other request.

Certainly, I try very hard not to, and in fact don't, divulge confidences or advice that we've given. But by the same token, I am a believer in transparency. I will say as much as I possibly can, that I want to say, in my reports. And as I said before, I've done what I can in my investigations to make observations, even if they're not specific to the actual question of whether there was a contravention.

I guess, as you say, I'm trying to balance transparency with confidentiality. The system wouldn't work if people, when they're looking for advice, couldn't trust that what they have told me in confidence would be kept confidential.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I appreciate that. We are trying to get.... Well, I'm trying to get--I shouldn't say “we”, because I'm sure other members have been here long enough--my head around this thing. The accountant in me likes to do its debits and credits. I did a gap analysis of what you can or can't do, and you have no sanctions.

So if I were a minister and I were to make the statement that Madam Dawson had this under her belt, you could not say yes or no, deny it, or say anything, because I, as a minister, gave it to you and you would have no reason to say anything. Are you that confined by stuff?

[Mary Dawson]

It depends on the question, I think. I'd have to look at each problem that was being raised with me.

I don't think I can answer that question generally.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Fine. No problem.

Coming back to Ms. Guergis, we had asked about the Wright Tech issue. Did you have a report on Ms. Guergis and Wright Tech? Are you planning to release a report?

[Mary Dawson]

Yes. I've undertaken an investigation on that matter and it's ongoing.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

And everybody has cooperated? You said somewhere that you can't force witnesses. Are there some changes in the code that you'd like to make?

[Mary Dawson]

I can't comment on an investigation that's ongoing.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

No, no, sorry, I'm just asking a general question. You have asked that changes be made to the code. Would one of the things be that you would like witnesses to come before you to give their undying attention and tell the truth and nothing but? And I know you're not a court of law.

[Mary Dawson]

Generally speaking, I don't have a problem with witnesses. They're very forthcoming. I don't have a problem.

There is an issue in the code that's not 100% clear as to whether I have subpoena power. That's one of the proposals I will be bringing, where it's made clear that I do have the power to subpoena.

But aside from that, generally speaking, the witnesses are very cooperative. And the person complained against is very cooperative, generally speaking.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Mr. Weston.

[Rodney Weston, Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Dawson, I'm very new to this committee, and it's a pleasure to be here today to hear you bring forward comments on your report here.

I have a couple of questions and they're following along the same line as Madam Ratansi's comments around confidentiality.

In your report you do speak quite lengthily about confidentiality, and in that section you do express some frustration, I guess, to say the least. One of the statements you make that kind of jumped out at me was “This situation may sometimes lead the public and Members to surmise that I do not take requests seriously....” That kind of troubles me, I guess, to be very frank with you, the statements you make, that members might not take your requests seriously.

I guess where I'm going with this, and it's following up with some of your earlier responses around certain instances, is how do you feel? Surely you're not suggesting here that releasing information would go anywhere towards making people feel better-served by your role. And I apologize if I seem to be leading here, but I'm trying to grasp how you feel you could rectify the situation to give better confidence to the members, and the public for that matter, and still respect the confidentiality that's expected of you by the individuals in question if there is a complaint or an investigation undertaken by you.

I'll use myself, for example, as a member of Parliament. If you undertook an investigation of some situation regarding me and some information were to come out, you referred to information that's already in the public domain, but that doesn't necessarily mean the information that's in the public domain is correct. The information that you deal with is actual factual information. I guess I'm a little perplexed at this point in time by the comments, by the statement, and what you feel would be a better situation for you, as a commissioner, to be in.

[Mary Dawson]

Well, the gap that troubled me was when I don't proceed with an investigation. Somebody has rushed out to the press and said, “Okay, I've just filed a complaint against somebody with the Information Commissioner against this foul deed that somebody else did”, and I get the request, and maybe there are no reasonable grounds at all given to me. I can never say anything. When I don't proceed with an investigation, I can never say there were no reasonable grounds. I can never say it wasn't within my mandate.

Those are simple statements that could be given to counter the implication that somebody was a real bad guy but that I didn't do anything about it. It's a very small hole, but I think it's one hole that needs a little bit more room for me to be able to say something to counter—and I always couch it with it has to be in the public domain. In other words, I wouldn't rush out to say something if it wasn't in the public domain. It's to counter false statements or misleading statements that are being made. And of course I would use my discretion as to whether to do this. It would just be when I thought it was necessary.

It's a small piece, but I can make a report when I've proceeded with an investigation, I can make a report when I discontinue an investigation, but I can't make any kind of comment publicly when I don't proceed with an investigation, and sometimes it would be helpful to be able to make that comment.

[Rodney Weston, Conservative, Saint John, NB]

And I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just asking you to elaborate on it.

[Mary Dawson]

Yes, so that's the area.

[Rodney Weston, Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Because as no doubt you're aware, just the.... For instance, if Mr. Proulx made a complaint to you about me, just the very instance that it's in the public domain that he made that complaint, people would sometimes automatically assume that I'm guilty of something that's gone before your eyes here, some sort of investigation that's undertaken, for you to determine that.

So I appreciate where you're coming from and I would look forward to some suggestions, if you want to make some recommendations. Your whole role is all about confidentiality and transparency, and to try to balance those, I don't envy you that task at all. So I certainly would like to see some sort of a recommendation brought forward that we could do something to rectify a situation from both ends of the spectrum.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

You seem to be a nice guy.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Rodney Weston, Conservative, Saint John, NB]

I have just one other question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

No, your time is up.

[Mary Dawson]

Can I just respond, though?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You may finish, sure.

[Mary Dawson]

It's already in the package that I tabled in March.

[Rodney Weston, Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Which you as a member of this committee will be seized with shortly.