Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 5th, 2010

[Mary Dawson]

It could lead to an investigation. We look at letters that come in from the public, and if there seems to be something really untoward there we will ask around and see what we can find out about it a little bit. But it can't just be suppositions. There has to be some foundation that there's something there. You can't just say “I don't trust this guy” and we'll do an investigation.

But we do take them seriously. We take a look, and if there's something that looks like it ought to be looked into we have, on occasion, for example, gone to the individual complained against and said “Look, this has been raised. What can you say about it?” Or we'll look elsewhere. That's when you can use the self-initiation.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

In those cases, do you communicate back to the person from the public who made the original complaint, and let them know?

[Mary Dawson]

Yes, we always communicate back, and we'll explain why we didn't do anything more.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Right. Is there any aspect of public complaints that raises a problem? Should it be expanded? Is there a limitation on it? It strikes me that it's different if it's initiated from within the institution and something that you choose to initiate. Is there a need for some kind of public complaints mechanism that's more formal?

[Mary Dawson]

I don't think there's a crying need, frankly. The public can go to their MP and complain about something. They can come to me. Both of us will look at whatever that complaint is.

I'm not sure it's necessary to have the public able to make a complaint.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Mr. Cuzner. It's good to have you here today, by the way.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you very much. It's a guest spot, a guest appearance.

Thank you very much, Ms. Dawson, for being here today.

This is just to wrap up what one my colleagues had been asking before. I recall that when we were doing the study on gifts and the whole issue around acceptance of gifts, you cautioned the committee at that time about not just a conflict taking place but the perception of a conflict, and making sure there was no perception of conflict.

To use the hypothetical case that my colleague referred to, if somebody was leaving an industry, an industry that does billions of dollars of business with the Government of Canada, and that individual was leaving that business and assuming the top political staffing position in the country, knowing full well that they were going to go back to that industry in subsequent months, do you not see...? You know, if we're wanting to hold the trust and faith of the people of Canada, can you understand that the people of Canada are asking if we're leaving the dogs in charge of the meat here? So it's the perception around it as well.

Are you confident that the safeguards are there to protect the perception of conflict of interest?

[Mary Dawson]

Well, there's the letter of the law and then there's the perception. The basic rule is every public office holder shall arrange his or her public affairs in a manner that will prevent the public office holder from being in a conflict of interest. That's not a perception; that's an actual conflict of interest. So that's the fundamental rule. I can't remember off the top of my head where the perception comes in here in the rules.

You know, there's a question of whether it's prohibited and then there's a secondary question of whether it will create such flak that it's a problem, or whether it just smells.

Are we talking about the code here? We're talking about the act, I guess.

There are rules here that are pretty good. As I said before, it's one of the more rigorous pieces of legislation when you compare it to other countries'. These rules are not bad. They're quite effective.

It's a personal choice as to what situations one wants to put oneself in. It may not be caught by the rules that are in the act or the code, but there's a personal choice to be made as to whether one wants to do something.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

The rules can only go so far in guarding the perception there.

[Mary Dawson]

Yes. I mean, if you had rules that prevented everything, you wouldn't be able to move.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Yes.

I'll just shift gears here. In June you opened an investigation into the former Minister of Public Works, Minister Paradis, investigating the privileged access granted to Rahim Jaffer and his company.

How is the report coming along? How's the investigation coming along? Can you update us on that? When can we anticipate a report? Are you getting full and open help from those being investigated?

[Mary Dawson]

I have express provisions that prohibit me from saying anything at all about any investigation I've launched, aside from the fact that I have launched it. The next time I can talk about it is in my report, which I try to make nice and fulsome. In the meantime, I can't talk about it at all.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Are you able to share with us how deep you're allowed to go? Will you be reaching in and maybe investigating some political staffers, for example? Would you be able to share with us how deep you're going there?

[Mary Dawson]

With political staffers?

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Yes.

[Mary Dawson]

I don't know what you're referring to, but my report, when I get to the report, will set out what I did and what I found.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay. When do we anticipate having that?

[Mary Dawson]

It's hard to say. It depends very much on the cooperation we get with the various availabilities of witnesses. It takes time. I would say not before several months.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay. So--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Cuzner, you're on a roll, but it's five minutes.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Oh, is it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Yes.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I know how time flies when you're having fun.

Mr. Albrecht.