Evidence of meeting #24 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was candidate.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to discuss the part of your report entitled “Parties' Returns: Documentary Evidence”. You would like to “Require the parties to provide, upon request, explanations or documents to support their election expenses returns.” You say that the act does not authorize that, but that you can request it. We submit a report, and after that, you have the right to request documentary evidence.
What exactly are we talking about?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I can request that evidence of the candidates, yes, but not of the political parties. That is the current inconsistency in the act. I don't have the authority to ask a political party to produce documentary evidence in support of expenses identified in the election expenses return.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
And if you find something you don't like, what will you do?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
It depends on what we find. Sometimes the item we want to verify is quite trivial. For example, if there is a calculation error, we will ask the party to review its figure. If, based on certain information or complaints we've received, we think there is something else, we will ask the party to provide clarification. If it refuses to give us the information we are seeking, we will have to determine whether we believe there are possible offences involved that would warrant an investigation. The purpose of the recommendation is to see whether, before taking extreme measures, there would be a responsibility on their part to produce the appropriate documentation in support of the claimed expenses.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
On the other hand, it is important to know whether your recommendation will mean that when the return is submitted, you will expect all the appropriate documentary evidence to be provided at the same time. That's the problem we have.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
No, it is important to note that the recommendation states that this will be done upon request. It won't be automatic, unlike for candidates. If we have questions on an aspect of the return, we are simply asking to be able to go back to the party to provide documentation in support of the expense that seems questionable.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
So, I guess we have to trust you and assume that you won't systematically be making this kind of request. You could simply tell the parties that, from now on, it would be simpler if they just provided the supporting documentation. The issue is the turnaround time; we are given a certain amount of time to submit our return. If you intend to ask us to provide everything in one shot… As you know, the expenses are more important.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Any request for supporting documentation will be made following submission of the return.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
All right. So you will never ask that this be done at exactly the same time. However, there is nothing here that gives us that guarantee.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
No. This presupposes a preliminary review of the return and, if that review gives rise to certain questions, we may ask to see documentation to support those particular expenses.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
All right; that's fine.
After that, you have a section entitled “Disposal of a Candidate Surplus Electoral Funds”. Here you say: “There is no explicit requirement in the act for a candidate to dispose of campaign property after the election; it deals solely with surplus funds.” You are adding a requirement for the candidate to do that beforehand.
Could you not just provide for a mandatory transfer of such property to the association? Did you think of that?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
It's mentioned in the recommendation. You will see that if you look at the detailed report. Here we refer mainly to equipment. In most cases, our position is that the equipment should be returned or transferred to either the association or the party. In exceptional cases where there is no association or party, we ask that the property be sold at fair market value and that this revenue be included in the surplus to be declared, if there is one.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
With respect to campaign returns, you say there is a need to “Harmonize the offences related to the filing of campaign returns so that they apply to candidates and nomination contestants, as they do to their agents”.
For instance, my riding includes some 65 municipalities, towns and villages. There are 35 days in a campaign. Are you telling me that every single evening I will have to verify expenses?
I have an official agent. He does his job. At the end, I sign my return. But now you're saying that the candidate should be just as liable as the official agent, even though the candidate has not handled all the expenses.
As you know, we assess our expenses and prepare budgets at the beginning of a campaign. But now you're turning me into an accountant. My problem is that I am not going to have the time to do that accounting. Is that what you want?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
It raises the whole matter of the value of a signature.
The act already requires that the campaign return be signed by the candidate. Elsewhere in the legislation, it states that the agent and the candidate—depending on the process—are liable if the return is fraudulent. The only exception is nomination contests—which do not take place or raise issues with any frequency—involving candidates who are already required to sign the campaign return.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Yes, I understand that.
The problem is that the same offences will apply to both the candidate and the official agent. Theoretically, we try to secure someone as official agent who has some background in accounting. But that does not mean that the candidate also has a background in accounting.
If you are telling me that every single night I will have to spend two hours calculating my campaign expenses, well that's not a problem.
Conservative
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I want to pick up on the issue of registering by Internet, but first I want to comment on your analysis report. It says:
In the 1990s, Canada moved from a system that created lists of electors based on door-to-door enumeration after the writ for an election had been issued to the establishment of a permanent register....
Has that been a success, in your view? Do we have a better system, a more accurate, fair system for Canadians when we do it this way, as opposed to when we actually went out and knocked on doors?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
After 13 years of experience with the national register, I think we have a list that's even better than enumeration would have produced. I rely on that, on the data we had in 1997 when the register was established.
On the challenge we have when we do door-to-door targeted revision, our efforts on revision are quite significant and produce very little benefit. It's harder and harder to get electors to open the door, agreeing to respond or provide information. Again, we continue to do targeted revision in special areas across the country, but it's increasingly difficult.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
What are we doing about the issue of people who are homeless? There are many aboriginal citizens who still have difficulty getting on the register. How are we doing on that front in terms of making gains, to give everyone their legal franchise?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
We do have programs to reach out to various groups of electors. We have what we call community relation officers who engage with shelter administrators to provide information to homeless people who use the shelter as to how they can cast their ballots. We also have programs within aboriginal communities to inform them and facilitate their registration to make sure they understand what they need to do to cast their ballot.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Have you or your predecessors, historically, actually met and sat down with groups that represent the homeless individuals and the challenges they face? Has that been done right at the street level, for people who do the best they can to help folks who--
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
It's very much done at the local level. I will deal with national associations at the national level, but certainly in each riding that's part of the responsibility of the ROs--
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I was only asking at the upper level because we're talking about changing the rules, and of course the macro rules would apply to everybody within the riding. I understand you are saying it's done at the local level, but we still need the framework in law to ensure that the activities are happening, and if there's going to be further outreach we need to ensure that people understand what is expected of them when they're running operations in the riding.
Are there any other jurisdictions in Canada, or even in the Commonwealth, that you're aware of that still do enumeration, or have they all moved to a permanent voters list, to the best of your knowledge?
