Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 18th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'd like to call our meeting to order.

We have moved to a different study this morning. We're now studying the question of privilege relating to the statements made by the Minister of International Cooperation. We are back and we have all day for this study.

First of all, I have just a little bit of housekeeping business that I'd like to share with the group. Yesterday the Department of National Defence delivered a fair amount of documentation to this committee, for the members of the committee, on the program for the CF-35s. I recognize that we've been saying we weren't truly studying that, that it wasn't part of the privilege, but they have sent us the documentation. It is extensive and apparently has a lot of information for members.

The difficulty I'm faced with is that it is not 100% translated. Much of this is documentation from the United States and other English countries, so we would.... I guess it's at the will of the committee. There's a lot of information there. It is the practice of this committee to ask whether it can be tabled in its present format or whether we will send it for translation.

Mr. Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I find it disturbing that DND would have the gall to bring documents to a Canadian committee without making sure that the documents are in both official languages.

Mr. Chair, you know, you are one of the committee chairs who insists the most on the fact that everything…

Are you okay?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'm okay. I'm just turning myself on....

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

You are one of the committee chairs who insists the most on having documents available in both official languages. We can discuss it with our colleagues in the Bloc Québécois and the NDP because, unfortunately, no one on the other side of the table would be concerned about the fact that it wasn’t in French, since they understand English. But we have difficulty understanding when everything is in English. I think that we have to respect the Official Languages Act, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Agreed, and I would share with the members that I've been told it could take up to six months to translate the number of documents that are there. It's the chair's job to bring it to the committee and get a ruling from the committee, or get some help from the committee, on whether we'd like them now or we just follow--

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

If it takes six months to have them translated, this means that the Department of National Defence has been working with these documents for months without the documents being bilingual. Mr. Chair, it’s an affront to the Department of National Defence employees who don’t speak English. That means that they worked with documents that didn’t weren't in compliance with the Official Languages Act.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I can't tell you what happens at the Department of National Defence. I chair the procedure and House affairs committee.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Fair enough. That's fair enough.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'll go to Monsieur Laframboise for comments.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

You will understand, Mr. Chair, that we are opposed to these documents being submitted if they are not available in both official languages. It’s just further proof that the Department of National Defence and the government did not intend to submit them to parliamentarians. By not having them translated or submitted in both official languages, that means that they didn't intend to submit them to parliamentarians. So this is another breach of parliamentarian privilege, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Monsieur Laframboise.

Mr. Reid.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Mr. Chair, I am also aware of the importance of both our official languages and the importance of complying with the rules concerning both official languages, which includes the rule that, in the absence of unanimous consent from the committee, it is unacceptable to circulate the documents in one language alone.

But I do think it would be helpful, if it would be possible, to circulate a list or an index of what these documents are so that we have some idea.... I don't even know how many documents we're talking about, for example, or how many pages.

I heard you say the word “extensive”, but that could mean different things to different people, so if something of that sort could be done.... Obviously that would have to be in both languages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'm looking to see if the index has been translated and if it is available to us that way. If it is, we will let you see the index, I guess. It appears to be in both official languages.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

So it's in order to circulate that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I think that may be appropriate, if that's.... Again, the chair would like the will of the committee, not the will of the chair.

Monsieur Paquette.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

One solution might be to have the documents submitted as they are translated. That way, we wouldn’t have to wait six months. I think that Parliament would have the resources to start to working on them. I don’t know if a motion is necessary or if we can all simply agree to having the documents submitted to the House as they are translated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I like that idea.

Monsieur Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thanks, Chair.

I just want to get on the record that while I totally agree that all documents presented before a parliamentary committee should be in both official languages—that's a given, and I accept that, and I agree with that, frankly—I want to point out that there has been a myriad of requests about more information regarding the purchase of the F-35s. As the chair pointed out, I think, unless I heard incorrectly, this information is relatively new to the government. It was compiled from nations like the United States and other primarily English-speaking nations.

There's no insult here. I sense the tone from people saying that this was disrespectful to the committee.

I think this was just an attempt to say there has been information requested and we've received some; it's not in both official languages, but if you'd like to get your hands on these documents and start examining them--as you have been requesting for months now--they are available to you.

That, I think, is the point the chair was trying to make. Certainly it's the government's position that if you want to see the information, it's available. If you don't want to see it until it's translated, fine; your will will be done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'll take an intervention from Mr. McGuinty, and then let's wrap this up. I think we have a path we could follow here, but let's try....

David.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Chair, I am astonished by Mr. Lukiwski's comments. There are seven million francophones in this country. We've been waiting for answers from the government on this matter for four months. It would seem that Mr. Lukiwski thinks that it’s appropriate to deliver in one official language documents that were requested over four months ago now. It would be appalling if he dared insist that these documents be accepted now. It would be to the detriment of Canadians.

Mr. Chair, was any explanation given to you whatsoever when these documents were forwarded to this committee? Is this pursuant to the requests made to the government on October 6, deadline November 24, to return these documents? Is this all the information that parliamentarians have been asking for now for over four months?

After hearing for two days from you, Chair, and rightly so, and from ministers, that this committee was not seized whatsoever with the F-35 issue, even though it formed part of the opposition day motion and the Speaker's ruling, can you help us understand why this is happening today, on a Friday, four months after the request was made, and not in bilingual form in compliance with committee or government rules?

It just smacks of desperation, Mr. Chair. What's going on?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. McGuinty, I can tell you that I spent a great deal of time looking at this issue last night. I felt I should bring it to the committee and not deal with it myself.

A letter from the minister came with the documents, explaining them. I've quickly breezed through it, so without reading it, I certainly won't try to quote from it.

I think we're at the point where we should ask the committee....

Monsieur Paquette had a great thought: as the documents are translated, we could distribute them to committee. What we can get to you we will get to you. The index, and perhaps the letter from the minister, which is in both official languages, we could get to the committee as quickly as possible.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

On a point of--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'm only suggesting this--

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I hear you, sir.

I just wonder, if it's not a matter that is related to a procedure and House affairs committee motion that this committee is seized with, why--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

This still is that committee.