Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 18th, 2011

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Durham, ON]

We will work with the wishes of the committee.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Right.

Mrs. Biggs, you know, for nine years I had the privilege of serving in a job at your level in this federal government as a deputy minister equivalent. It was a great privilege. I do know--I do know, having worked with CIDA for many years on different projects--that it is not common practice at all for a minister to instruct a staff person to write in the word “not”. It is normal procedure for a minister to either strike off the full sheet, perhaps even write a giant “no” on the cover of the sheet, and simply--as my colleague Mr. Proulx said--send it back upstairs with a very clear indication.

Now, you were asked repeatedly, Mrs. Biggs...and this is a factual question, not a matter of opinion. I know that the government doesn't want you to answer this question. It's not a matter of opinion. Is it common practice that ministers strike off or write a giant “no” or simply don't sign the document and send it back to your office for CIDA funding proposals?

I don't want to hear about new forms and new requirements and new boxes. It's a simple question. On December 9.... We just want to know, is it common practice?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Certainly, Mr. Reid.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Now, it may very well be the case—I don't know because I haven't heard the answer yet—that some of the things that Mr. McGuinty wants to exclude from the answer might be germane to the answer. I don't know, but I don't think he can presuppose and slice out relevant information in order to build a narrative.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That's not a point of order.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Chair, that's the ninth time Mr. Reid has tried to pass off interventions as points of order. It is the ninth time in a row you tell him it's not a point of order. Maybe you can get him under check.

Ms. Biggs, through you, Mr. Chair, could we go back to the answer?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'd remind members—

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I'm not the procedural expert that Mr. McGuinty is—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Ms. Biggs, please.

[Margaret Biggs]

Chair, as I indicated earlier today, I am aware of other circumstances where Minister Oda's decision and direction to the department included the insertion of the words “not” or “do not”. That's a point of fact.

On your second issue, it would be clearer and less confusing if the minister's decision and direction was written “do not approve”, “do not agree”. That would be a clearer way of communicating it.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

No doubt it would be a clearer way. That's not the question I asked you, Ms. Biggs. Through the chair, that's not the question I asked you.

Now you've revealed here that there are other instances where this Conservative minister and this Conservative government have inserted the word “not”. Is that the case?

[Margaret Biggs]

Yes, I said that.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Do you have that information here today? What funding proposals?

[Margaret Biggs]

No, I don't have it here with me.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Can you tell us which funding proposals they were, as a matter of fact?

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Durham, ON]

As I indicated, Mr. Chair, through you, we would be willing to cooperate with the request of the committee. I understand there are procedures under which you would follow....

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Chair, if I could, through you, I'm going to ask Ms. Biggs again, and I think this is probably the fourth or fifth time.

I'm not denying that you're getting close to answering the question. We're getting there; we're inching our way forward. I wouldn't worry too much, Ms. Biggs, about some of the other pressures you may be under. I think it's really important for you to answer this question.

Is it normal practice for ministers to strike off funding approvals, or write “no”, or send it back upstairs unsigned? Isn't that the normal practice—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. McGuinty.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

—in terms of the funding proposals coming to you?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Your time is up. We'll allow an answer.

[Margaret Biggs]

It is a practice for ministers to convey their decisions to the department, and they do use different means. You can write “do not agree”, strike it across, as you said, “no, do not agree”, initial it, and date it.

It would not be, in my view, a good practice to just send a document back. Then it's not clear to the deputy what the decision of the minister actually was. My preference would be to have a written decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

[Margaret Biggs]

Sorry, Chair, I am trying to answer the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Lukiwski for five minutes, please.