Evidence of meeting #8 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was message.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Audrey O'Brien  Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons
Rob Walsh  Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Yes, because that shows us at what time he sent the message. According to our Standing Orders as they are now worded, if I am sitting in the House of Commons then I cannot rise and say such a thing in public, but I can leave to go get a coffee and then say the same thing in public.

11:30 a.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons

Audrey O'Brien

In that case, you are no longer in the House, as the Speaker has indicated. If you decide to move to the lobby or go up to the gallery to greet guests—

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

My thinking, rather, is that others are watching Twitter, and the member knows that for a fact. He then rises and makes a point of order. For example, he points out to the Speaker that Mr. Godin has just sent something out over Twitter while sitting in the House, not while drinking coffee and eating cookies in the lobby. What should be done in such a case?

11:35 a.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons

Audrey O'Brien

I think that the issue is to what extent we should rely on the Speaker to insist that colleagues extend a collegial courtesy to one another. There will always be ways to get around the rule stating that members cannot refer to another's absence or presence in the House. That is not part of a specific Standing Order. It is House practice, and I think it comes from the notion of courtesy towards one's colleagues. A member can call on the Speaker when he or she feels wronged by another member. The issue has been raised as to the use of electronic devices in the House. Clearly, I think the Speaker discourages such behaviour, without going so far as prohibiting it.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Ah, "the Speaker has closed his eyes and nodded off": now that would be a great Twitt.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I'm sorry, but I just have to finish my Twitter that Mr. Cuzner left the meeting today.

11:35 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Just kidding.

That was the seven-minute round. We'll move to five minutes in just a second. If you don't mind, I have one question that I'd like to ask of Mr. Walsh.

Where does a member's privilege carry over on electronic devices? If I say it in the House, am I covered by privilege even if I've said it on my electronic device? I don't take many questions as the chair, but I thought of that one, and I had some help from our researchers. If I say it on my BlackBerry, am I still covered?

11:35 a.m.

Rob Walsh Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

No.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

But I'm sitting in the House.

11:35 a.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

You can do all kinds of things in the House and not be covered.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Okay.

11:35 a.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

It's the base that is covered; it's the proceedings of the House that are covered. I'm not yet aware that the Speaker has made a ruling that Twittering or Facebooking or communicating on a BlackBerry constitute part of the proceedings of the House. I stand to be corrected, of course, in the presence of the Speaker, but I'm not aware of that.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Just as writing a letter is not.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Okay. Even if I did it in my role as an MP and did it in--

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

On letterhead and everything, yes.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Right. Okay. Super.

Mr. Pacetti, welcome today. It's good to have you here.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you.

I might as well admit that I am a BlackBerry-carrying member, so I can put that disclaimer out.

I'm not going to belabour the point, but I agree with all of this—that's my personal opinion—in regard to what you can do directly. What you do directly, you can't do indirectly. I don't know how the committee is going to wade into that, but I'm more looking at what Mr. Guimond brought up before, the sanctions.

So before you expel us or prevent us from using a BlackBerry, I would like to perhaps warn you that we are very addicted to them. I don't know how you would implement a sanction. You're going to be punishing the innocent, because probably 99.9% of us are good parliamentarians and won't disclose that another member is not in the House, but I'm sure you're going to want to sanction the members who are continuously or chronically avoiding or circumventing the rules.

If we are going to look at perhaps limiting access to these electronic devices, as you were saying, Ms. O'Brien...I'm a regular member of the finance committee and we get screamed at regularly for looking at our BlackBerrys. When the witness screams at us, we all put our BlackBerrys down, and when the next witness speaks, we all pick them up again. So it is a huge problem, but it is one that I think has to be looked at not only in the House but in all committees and at all functions. But we need them.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

We lived without them before.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Yes, but it's not the same as it used to be.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Dryden, would you like to share Mr. Pacetti's time?

Welcome to you, today.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Dryden Liberal York Centre, ON

Thank you.

From the comments you made, I mostly heard that even if the instrument is different, what we are doing is not much different, if at all, directly and indirectly. In fact we have been doing lots of things of a sort indirectly for a long time. This is another way of doing it; I'm just not sure it ends up being any different.

Certainly if the point is disruption of the House, I don't think so. I don't see how it further disrupts the House, especially in the context of all the things that do disrupt the House. I think it is looking at something that is very, very minor in the context of something that is very, very major.

It goes to the point the clerk was making earlier and that Massimo brought up a bit. We are all used to being in situations where somebody is reading a newspaper or writing a letter or looking at their BlackBerry. We're used to that.

I remember the first couple of weeks I was here being so stunned by that—in our caucus meetings and so on—and then it became very normal and very explainable. We live 24-hour days that have 36 hours worth of things to do, so we do things at the same time.

I can explain it, but it's very difficult to explain to somebody whose experience is different. Somebody who arrives at a committee hearing or is sitting up in the gallery is somebody for whom coming to Ottawa is a big deal. Testifying before a committee is a big deal. They have prepared for it. They are here. They have taken it seriously. They feel the seriousness of the surroundings, and all of a sudden they experience something where their understanding is that they're not being taken seriously.

We have our own perspective on it and our own sets of experiences, but we're also dealing with a much larger audience who react in a very different way because their experiences are very different. It doesn't do us any good in terms of our reputation. It really does considerable harm.

This is slightly beyond the technology part, but I would like to use the opportunity to say it. It goes to that sense of disruption in the House. We do not do ourselves any favours by what we look and sound like in the House and in question period. It's all normal to us; it's explicable. But anybody watching at home may only have an impression, a visual experience, with an MP on the 10 o'clock news. In the course of a year it's not likely that you're going to knock on their door. It's not likely that you're going to be at an event. Their experience of you, or anybody like you, is going to be the clip from question period on the news.

We do not do ourselves any favours. We may have all kinds of explanations of why it is that way—and there are sound explanations—but the end result is that we are much more disrespected.

I would say two things in terms of the context of all that. One is that what we are used to in terms of dealing with ourselves is one thing. In terms of dealing with the public, it's quite different, and we don't do ourselves any favours in that way. Second, in terms of the extent to which what we're talking about today has an impact on the House, to me, it's extremely minor in the context of something that is a lot more major than that.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Could I just throw something in?

Suppose, for example, Mr. Chairman, you were sitting in the House working away, and Mr. Reid came over to your office and said, “I've got a point of order I want to make in the House. Is the Speaker in the chair, or is it somebody else?” Your staff say, “We'll find out”, and send you an e-mail or a text message saying, “Is the Speaker in the chair or not?” You write back, “No, it's the Deputy Speaker.”

It was sent from the House. It says I'm not there. Imagine. Is this something that shouldn't happen?

That is part of the thing. You can send these messages and get information. You can text a member sitting in the House and ask if so-and-so is there because you want to talk to so-and-so. The person says he's not there, and you're suddenly in trouble. If he's there, you're fine, but if he isn't there, technically you've breached our rules, because you can't refer to the absence of a member.

You're asking the Speaker to decide when this is an offence and when it is not, without there being a rule in place that governs it. The rule is that in debate you can't. My point in my ruling was that a text message isn't a debate. Yes, it isn't good to be sending that kind of information out, but if we want to stop it, it is going to be tough to stop unless we eliminate the machine issue, I think. Do you know what I'm saying?

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We'll go to Mr. Albrecht, or Mr. Hoback.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think I'll take my entire time.