Evidence of meeting #72 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was area.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I call our meeting to order.

I'm trying to start right on time. We have a very busy agenda today.

If I could also beg your indulgence, I wanted to speak to Madame Turmel before we started, but she's not here.

Oh, Madame Turmel is here.

I have to leave a little after noon today. I know we had scheduled the meeting all the way till one p.m., but I have another engagement and I have no co-chairs, so I'm going to ask your indulgence. As we did the other day when members couldn't be here to review the report, I ask that we get as far as we can today and then continue the review of the reports next Thursday, if that is permissible. We have the opening for report review on next Thursday—that's right.

That's where we're at. Thank you very much.

We have great witnesses today to talk about this area of eastern Ontario. We'll have five minutes from each of you and then questions and answers from the members.

Mr. Hsu, would you like to go first?

11 a.m.

Liberal

Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I'd be happy to.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to thank the committee for the opportunity to give testimony.

I want to start out by thanking the commission for producing numerous proposals and allowing public commentary on those proposals. I think that is a very good thing. In my oral testimony, I'm only going to provide a summary of the written testimony that I've already given to the committee, because of the time limitations.

Let me start with the Hamilton area. I would like to go on the record as supporting the second of three proposals put forward by the commission as best reflecting the communities of interest in the city of Hamilton.

Regarding the Algoma area, I would like to go on the record as supporting those who believe the commission's first proposals best reflect the requirement to have manageable geographic size of electoral districts.

I wanted to deal with those two first.

The next one I want to discuss is the proposed Bay of Quinte electoral district, and I would like to support the request from the municipal council of Prince Edward County to appropriately name that electoral district Prince Edward—Quinte. The reason for that is because Bay of Quinte, which is what the commission has proposed so far, does not reflect that only part of the Bay of Quinte is in the proposed riding, named, for now, Bay of Quinte. In fact, a better description of that riding would be Quinte, for the part that is north of the Bay of Quinte—Belleville and Trenton—and Prince Edward for the part of Prince Edward County that's south of the Bay of Quinte. I live near that area and I know that's how people think of that area, so I think it would be a better name. I have a letter of support from the municipal council for that, which I will be happy to give to the committee.

Finally, I would like to address issues with the electoral district of Kingston and the Islands. The commission has proposed that the part of the city of Kingston north of the 401 be moved to a new riding called Lanark—Frontenac. My original submission to the commission last year was to support their initial proposal to leave Kingston and the Islands unchanged. I would like to request that again today, to repeat something I already gave in writing to the commission. I can leave behind a copy of an e-mail and a response from the commission with that request.

The reason for leaving the city of Kingston whole inside the riding of Kingston and the Islands is that I believe the city of Kingston forms a strong community of interest. The people who have come to me believe it should not be broken up. I do have a number of e-mails that people have sent in that I can leave with the committee to pass on to the commission.

People north of the 401 go to school and work south of the 401, and vice versa. There are public services associated with the municipality that are shared. There's also the Little Cataraqui Creek watershed that is shared between the city of Kingston north of the 401 and south of the 401. Historically, the city of Kingston has always been inside one riding, since Sir John A. MacDonald first ran in the riding in the first election after Confederation.

In terms of community support, I will leave with the committee and the commission a letter of support from the member of the provincial parliament, John Gerretsen, but I do understand the municipal councillor for the north of Kingston and for the east of Kingston have another plan that my colleague, Mr. Reid, will discuss. However, the mayor of Kingston is remaining neutral. I would simply acknowledge that.

In terms of the demographic consequences, it is true that Kingston and the Islands would have a lot more people than Lanark—Frontenac. If Kingston were kept whole, Lanark—Frontenac would still have 90,000 people, which is not unusual for a rural riding like that.

I see that my time is running out. I'll be happy to answer any questions to clarify some of these points. Thanks.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you. We will get to questions right after we have Mr. Reid's presentation.

Mr. Reid, it's great to see you at that end of the table.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Colleagues, I asked the clerk to distribute a presentation, which you have in front of you. There are two copies, one in each official language, and you'll notice that there are handwritten tabs, so that's how you can tell.

Let me go through it and deal with each of the questions that have been raised to each of the presenters.

First of all, what am I proposing? Let us go back to the Kingston map, please. I'm proposing two things. One is that the new Lanark—Frontenac riding will have its name changed to Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, as it's going to include a chunk of Kingston. By geography, it will actually include more than half of the city of Kingston, so it seems appropriate to include that name.

Secondly, I'm asking for an additional boundary change. You can take a look at the maps that are up on the overhead. You can see that on the right-hand side is the present boundary of Kingston and the Islands. The yellow line going through there is Highway 401. Under the boundaries proposal put forward by the commission, that area is being moved into the Lanark—Frontenac riding.

I am proposing that an additional area, which I'll use the laser pointer to indicate, also be moved into the Lanark—Frontenac riding. You can see the Cataraqui River there. That's a significant divide. I'm suggesting that everything east of that point be moved.

The demographic consequences of making that change are the following: 11,900 people would be moved, which would have the effect of bringing both of the ridings much closer to the provincial median than they currently are. The exact numbers are on the handout to you.

There's a next question that you always ask: is there a domino effect on the surrounding ridings? The answer is no.

You ask next if we have spoken to our colleagues about these proposed changes. Mr. Hsu and I have been working closely, so closely, in fact, that you'll notice we are using the same format and fonts in our presentations, because we both submitted our presentations to each other ahead of time.

The next question is as follows: is your objection a repeated argument made before the boundaries commission or is it new? The answer is that this is new. I made a different presentation last November to the boundaries commission. The areas to the north and west of Kingston were dramatically different under the initial proposals. I protested that. The commission listened to my proposal.

One of the things I suggested was that in order to solve problems elsewhere in Frontenac County, additional population be obtained from the north of Kingston and the boundary be pushed down to Highway 401. The commission accepted that proposal, but at the time I made the proposal I was very careful to make the following note in my presentation, which you can read for yourself. What I said was—and I'm quoting myself here—“I won't pretend that this arrangement is ideal from the point of view of Kingston's rural north end.” In fact, I had no idea what they would think was best.

Once the boundaries were made public in February, I then contacted the municipal councillor, a man named Jeff Scott, who represents the ward district that covers the entire area north of Highway 401 that is being transferred. I asked, “What do you think?” His response to me is contained in a letter that is at tab B of the presentation. Essentially, he said that people there were enthusiastic about this, but he had some concerns. He said that the best way to respond to the concerns was to add the areas that I'm suggesting, south and east of Highway 401.

I note that you have a really good map now. They've just blown it up and made it a little closer. That's excellent.

What he said was, first of all, that his boundaries in his district are going to be changed. Right now, its southern boundary is Highway 401. After the municipal redistricting, it will take in everything east of Abbey Dawn Road. He said he'd like to have all of his district contained in a single riding and asked if I could make the change to incorporate that.

He also said to contact Brian Reitzel, who is the councillor for Pittsburgh ward. Pittsburgh ward currently is the entire area that I'm asking to have transferred. Following the municipal redistricting, it will be everything west of Abbey Dawn, south of Highway 401, and east of the Cataraqui.

I contacted Brian Reitzel, who told me that he would like to see his ward or his district transferred as well and have it become part of the new riding. His rationale is that Pittsburgh is an historic entity. Before 1998, Pittsburgh was a separate municipality. It was traditionally split between ridings over and over again in order to allow the city of Kingston, which in those days was much smaller, to be in a single riding.

He said that finally they got it right and put all of Pittsburgh into one riding in 2004, after the municipality had actually ceased to exist, and now it would be split up again, and they would not like to see that happen. I want to accommodate that rationale as well. He feels there is a strong community of interest in the entire area east of Highway 401, not merely for historical reasons but for some other interests as well.

Finally, I contacted the mayor of Frontenac Islands and asked if they wanted to be included. The rest of Frontenac County is in the riding I represent, although they are not contiguous with the part of the county, and his letter saying that they would prefer to remain with Kingston and the Islands is also included in the report I've submitted to you at tab C.

All I'm doing, Mr. Chair, in conclusion, is trying to reflect the interests of the local communities as represented to me by their elected representatives.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Super. Thank you very much.

Thank you both for good presentations and on time.

Mr. Menegakis, I believe you're leading off today. Five minutes, please.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our colleagues for being here with us today.

Mr. Hsu, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Yes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you. I'd like to begin with you.

First, I want to make a comment on your weighing in on Hamilton, Algoma, the Bay of Quinte. Clearly these are not your riding or areas, or I don't think even adjacent to your riding.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Yes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

It has been a practice of this committee to listen to witnesses, members of Parliament, speak specifically as it relates to their riding and how they're affected.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

It is the right of the witness to speak about whatever he wants.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

So does the member have the right to ask questions. Let's not kill time today.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

This is an answer for my colleague.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

I'm not asking you the question, Mr. Dion.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

I have the right to make a point of order.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

If it is one. May we carry on?

Mr. Menegakis, please.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Yes. My point is this, Mr. Hsu. Clearly we are going to be hearing from members of Parliament affected by those ridings. I hope you understand that their commentary on how they're affected and the knowledge they would have, an intricate knowledge of what they would have from their ridings, would have a lot more impact on certainly how this committee looks at it and I'm sure how the commission would look at it. That's the point I wanted to make before I was interrupted by Mr. Dion.

I want to ask a question in regard to community support. Mr. Jeff Scott is a councillor. We don't know...the mayor is not weighing in on the discussion. Are you aware of representations that were made to the commission by members from the community supporting what you're asking us here today?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

It turns out that because of the way the process is structured, because the initial proposal of the commission was to not change Kingston and the Islands, people thought they did not particularly need to go and convince the commission that their initial proposal was a good one.

If there weren't representations made at the very first meeting, that's what I would attribute it to. But I do have letters of support that I will be submitting to the committee today from the member of the provincial parliament, who is also a former mayor and city councillor, and also people who live in the area—in support of the idea of keeping the city of Kingston whole inside the riding of Kingston and the Islands.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you. Certainly anything you provide would be helpful.

I have a question—and I didn't see this in your presentation—on how it impacts the actual population of the riding, how your change would impact that. What would the numbers be?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

If you have my presentation, on the second page under number 3, “What are the demographic consequences of the changes...”, you will see that the area of the city north of the 401 has a population of 8,231 residents officially. If that were not in the riding of Lanark—Frontenac, the population of Lanark—Frontenac would be 90,178.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Your riding is Kingston. What would the population of Kingston and the Islands be with your proposal?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

It would be about 125,000, which is the latest census figure.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Okay. It would be 125,000.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

That's right.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

You would agree that that's considerably higher than 106,000, which the commission has sort of set for the province. Right?