Evidence of meeting #73 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commission.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
All right. Let's move on to the next round of questioning.
Mr. Lukiwski, go ahead for four minutes, please.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
I'm glad Monsieur Dion clarified the position here so well. We have one of the witnesses who is favour of the second map, the 2013 map, and four of the witnesses who are in favour of the initial map. I've heard many of the witnesses who are in favour of the first map call the second map a radical change, illogical, a dramatic change.
Clearly the commissioners are learned men. They put some time into the first map. They would have considered population variance, communities of interest, communities of identity. They came up with the first map that was completely changed on the second go-round. I'm just curious as to why. I'd like an opinion as to why
Mr. Karygiannis, despite the fact that Mr. Scott is trying to use the term “gerrymandering”, I'm not trying to question whether you did or didn't. I'm not here to try to question you on that. But I'd like to try to get some idea about the mindset of the commissioners as to why they would make such a radical change between the first and second maps. Is it because none of you made presentations to them after the first map, or is there some other reason?
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Thank you.
Usually if the proposal goes up, you see it. If you're satisfied with the proposal, you figure that's the way things are going to go. You monitor the submissions that are coming forward. Under no circumstances did a lot of people go to speak on the proposed changes that we see in the final map. A colleague from Scarborough—Rouge River says 25 people did. If only 25 people speak to a change, you wouldn't see such radical, drastic changes. People get moved to do things when their whereabouts are certainly changed.
If this is an indication as to people disagreeing with the three commissioners, I don't know what could be clearer. Seven people said the changes are good. The rest of the people said no. Political people who have been there for years said these changes were no good. The honorary mayor of Agincourt, Mr. Ron Watson, who has been a city councillor for years, came out to the meeting and told us that he had proof going back to Diefenbaker about when they were starting to change things around. He said that this is ludicrous.
So after hearing what they heard, did the commission gerrymander? If you look at the way this was done and if you look at gerrymandering and how it goes the salamander, well guess what, it's clear right here. They butchered ridings completely. My riding is completely cut in half.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Chair, I know we have only a couple of moments left. I was just trying to get an idea of why the change might have occurred. I know Madam Sitsabaiesan was frantically waving her hand and trying to give some response, so I'd like to hear her response.
NDP
Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Thank you, Mr. Lukiwski.
There's a difference between people who don't have access to good public transit booking time off work, spending two hours to travel downtown, spending the day to make a submission to the commission, and people simply sending an email. There's a difference in the effort that's made.
I only went to the commission one day and I know that on that day at least 25 people booked time off work to be able to make a presentation at the commission. That goes to show the passion and the effect it was having on people's lives and the communities at stake. That is why I greatly thank the commission for listening to the voices of the constituents who actually took the time to make a presentation.
I again want to thank Mr. Dion, who presented the rationale that the commissioners provided, and also make a point about.... I think it's Mr. Chisu and Mr. Karygiannis who are saying that they have other elected officials supporting their proposals or submissions. Actually, I'd say there's a little bit of political gamesmanship going on, because they have the Liberal MPP of my riding, who did not mention any concerns to his own member of parliament, but wrote to the Liberal MP and the Liberal MPP. Then Mr. Chisu said he has a city councillor, Raymond Cho, who was also a Conservative candidate in the Ontario elections, who apparently didn't write to his own MP—me—but to the Conservative MP down the street. So I see political gaming, whereas I heard that at the commission we had residents, resident associations, the school board trustee who represents the riding of Scarborough—Rouge River, as well as many community agencies, young people, old people, all presenting at the commission.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Mr. Chair, I'm sorry to interrupt and I know I interrupted Mr. Karygiannis as well, but the only point I would make, and I don't know if we'll have more time—
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
The trustee for Scarborough—Rouge River did not support the change. You've got a letter that clearly did not support the change.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
My only point was that it appears that many other witnesses wanted to respond to my question. I hope we have time later on to hear their testimony.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Some of the other very good questioners we have on this committee will bring up some of those points.
I did go five minutes with you, Mr. Lukiwski, so we'll do that for all.
I have Mr. Cullen next, for five minutes.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Chair. Thank you to the witnesses.
This stirs passions because it matters. There was a question put.
Mr. Chisu, in your testimony, I think in response to a question, you used the term “openly political” process. Can you clarify that for me?
Conservative
Corneliu Chisu Conservative Pickering—Scarborough East, ON
I will clarify it for you. When I was there at the commission, people came to the microphone saying they were from the EDA, from the NDP and so on. So they stated their political affiliations.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Was this all of the folks who came forward to testify in front of the commission?
Conservative
Corneliu Chisu Conservative Pickering—Scarborough East, ON
Most of them.
When I was there, I came as a private citizen because I didn't have any objection, only to change the wording to reflect Rouge Park. That was my only interest in the hearings in Scarborough because Rouge Park will be important in the future to our city, to Scarborough, and to everybody.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
In previous scenarios, when MPs have come forward to ask to dramatically change the commission's final report, there's been something comprehensive that we have seen as a committee, because there are always domino effects when you change one boundary to another. It's going to be a struggle for the committee because we don't have that. As Mr. Dion pointed out, Ms. James came forward with something, but we don't have a “new look” Scarborough from the four witnesses who are suggesting that this should be changed.
My question is for Mr. Karygiannis. I'm a bit confused. You seemed very reluctant to use the word “gerrymandering” when my colleague Mr. Scott was asking you about it, but then in a reply to Mr. Lukiwski you insinuated that gerrymandering had gone on with the maps that you saw. You said that the ridings were butchered. I have a quote from you here in the Scarborough Mirror saying this was gerrymandering. It's a simple question.
We've had the accusation levelled before—
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Let me give you a simple answer. Your colleague from Scarborough—Rouge River said that she had the support of Shaun Chen. I have a letter here from Shaun Chen disagreeing—
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
The politician of Scarborough—Rouge River, Shaun Chen, said that as far as the new Scarborough—Agincourt riding was concerned—
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
—he'd heard from residents who had expressed deep concerns about the boundaries of the new Scarborough—Agincourt and Scarborough—Wexford ridings.
Liberal