Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 2nd, 2013

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

That's correct.

In reading Mr. Allison's written deposition as well as Mr. Dykstra's, in Mr. Dykstra's case, asking for his boundary to be extended to the west, to the urban boundary line of St. Catharines, has no impact on my riding. I'm mute on that point.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay, great.

Then Mr. Dykstra and Mr. Allison, you and Minister Nicholson are making the same presentation. That is, all three of you are asking for the boundaries to be in the same.... There's no disagreement among you on where you're going with that.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

That's correct.

When we originally saw the changes that were made in the first iteration, they made sense. They obviously were researched, and they actually position the Niagara region in a much stronger way in terms of representation.

Mr. Allen comments about how, geographically, the Welland Canal is part of a way to determine how the riding should be split up. I would argue that in fact the Niagara Escarpment runs right along from a north to south line. It's a perfect switch in terms of where the changes should be made with respect to the ridings. How Mr. Allison's Niagara West riding actually encompasses a piece of that makes a lot more sense than the way the ridings are set up today, if we're going to use things like the Welland Canal and the Niagara Escarpment as position points.

The complaint of people in the south part of St. Catharines is not that they're called the Welland riding, but that they do not feel as if they're part of it. They feel much more like they're a part of the city of St. Catharines.

I certainly could have brought in a lot of evidence today to show how many people from that part of the city come to my office and look for assistance. They have never understood why the boundaries were set up the way they were.

These changes actually impact that.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Sorry, I only have 15 seconds, and I have one question I want to get out here.

There was an extra set of hearings in your region.

Am I right that there were only, as was the case everywhere else, the initial proposal map and then the second report map? There were just two set of maps, but an extra set of hearings. Is that correct?

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Yes.

I'll just speak to Mr. Allen's point. The reason that there's no representation from us is that we were happy with the first set of maps.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Yes, we told the commission that we were satisfied.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

We told them that we were happy, so we didn't go there to argue the point that they should be changed. That's why we weren't there.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Reid.

Madam Latendresse, five minutes, please.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for their statements.

I will start with Ms. Finley, as I gather she has to leave soon.

Ms. Finley, according to what you said, the minor change you are proposing affects the riding of Brant, is that correct?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Yes.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I wanted clarification on that.

Do you have the support of the member for the riding?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

It is Mr. McColeman, and there is no problem. It has to do with the integrity of the boundaries for the first nations? The issue is whether it falls within the Haldimand-Norfolk riding?

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Very well.

Obviously, when we prepare the report, it is easier when there is a consensus among those affected by the change.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

It affects just one person.

I would like the electoral boundaries to remain the same so as to preserve the integrity of both ridings. But I wasn't able to figure out whether that piece of land is part of the reserve or not.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Fine. Thank you.

On the screen, can we see the proposed version and the version that appears in the report for the ridings in the Niagara region? We could look at the Niagara West region, for example. It's to get a better sense of what's involved.

My question is for Mr. Allison.

In your letter, you make proposals. You want to make certain changes to the riding. Do you know exactly how many people would be affected?

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

I guess the challenge is that the original proposal would leave all the ridings balanced, which was the original intent—the balance of population—and which would give all of us approximately 115,000 people. What it means now is that I'm going to go down from 115,000 people, which is what I had, and that included Hamilton. All of Hamilton is happy, but I lose 25,000 people. Once again, the proposal now is that I go from 115,000 under the first proposal down to 85,000 people, and my concern is that the original intent of the commission was to balance the population.

Now, I also realize that there's this community of interest, which is the second piece of that, but purely from a population point of view, it means that I lose 25,000 people. It makes my riding stronger, according to the last election, but I believe it's important to balance the population as well.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Very well.

Mr. Allen, you attended the commission's public hearings. Could you please explain why you prefer that the boundary run north to south instead of east to west, as we see here? What did you say when you appeared before the commission?

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

In the Niagara region itself, which is a homogenous region and actually has a regional government, its axis is in transportation corridors to the north-south, not just the canal, but Highway 406, and it's the QEW that comes from the north in St. Catharines to the south in Fort Erie. Most of its major arterial roads are north-south. Most of its infrastructure is north-south. In fact, the economic gateways, as defined by the Niagara region, are Welland, Thorold, and Port Colborne, in my riding, and Niagara Falls and Fort Erie, which are in Minister Nicholson's riding.

The businesses and chambers of commerce who came before the commission, such as the chamber of commerce in Thorold and the business association in downtown Thorold, wanted to be aligned with Welland and Port Colborne. The chamber of commerce in Fort Erie wanted to be aligned with Niagara Falls. The mayors and councils were unanimous in Niagara-on-the-Lake and Fort Erie that they wished to be aligned in a north-south axis because of the river. The fact is that all three communities of interest are border communities based on that Niagara River that borders the U.S.

Look at things like school boards, for instance. The school board is the District School Board of Niagara, but superintendents are responsible in a north-south axis. In the Niagara Regional Police Service system, when you look at how sergeants and divisions are, it's a north-south axis. The divide of a geographical piece called the Niagara Escarpment is a wonderful place to grow wine on the Bench in Beamsville, but beyond that, there is no divide between that.... If that were the case, then the top end of St. Catharines would never be with St. Catharines, because it's above the escarpment.

I understand that it's a geographical piece; it's just never been used as a political boundary. As I said earlier, the south end of St. Catharines, in one iteration or another, has literally been part of the Welland—Thorold constituency for decades. It's not a new iteration. It's actually an old one.

The last point I'll make is that the maps did change from the first time. A new hearing was held in Hamilton as part of that piece. That was the opportunity to challenge the changes to the map from the first, and I was the only person who went.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Monsieur Dion, you have five minutes.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Thank you kindly, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Allen, I have no questions for you. I think you made your point very clear.

I have more questions for my other two colleagues. I think the stakes are much bigger.

I would like to know if you are equipped to give to this committee, Mr. Allison and Mr. Dykstra, for the four ridings involved, information on what the gap is between—together with the plus and minus—the provincial quota with the proposal of the commission, the last one, and with the one you propose. I ask because your main argument is that the four ridings will be more equal in size. Are you able to put numbers on that?

If you're not, maybe Madame Boisvert and Mr. Montpetit are. It's important for this committee that we figure out what is at stake.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Through you, Chair, to Mr. Dion, the numbers are really clear that in the first iteration, in the changes that were made by the commission, there was a balance of between 113,000 and about 117,000 for each of the four ridings.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

One hundred and thirteen and one hundred and...?

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Seventeen.

When you move to the changes that are now defined with the third iteration.... And here I would like to say that just because you don't go to present at a meeting that is being held.... In fact, the process you can use is a lot wider and broader than just attending a meeting. That's what both Mr. Allison and I have done in putting our objections forward.

To your point, Mr. Allison's riding will have approximately 84,000 to 85,000 people and Mr. Nicholson's riding will actually have around 126,000 people.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

The biggest one will be Mr. Nicholson's.