Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 2nd, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We'll go ahead and get started. We've had to start a little late. I'd still like to finish this session somewhere around the top of the noon hour today, so I'm asking each of our witnesses and all of our members to be as good as they can be at watching the clock, and succinct in their questions, answers, and statements.

We will give each of our members five minutes to tell us their story about their riding, and then members will ask questions. I'm simply going to go left to right, because that's my natural way of doing it.

Mr. Dykstra, would you like to go first, for five minutes?

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Sure, why not?

Thank you very much, Chairman.

I am presenting to you a survey we did in my riding. We've already forwarded this to the clerk.

I basically asked people to respond very specifically to the questions that the commission had put forward concerning whether or not they would support the riding changes and whether or not they should remain as is.

As you can see, to the questions that were put there are well over 1,200 responses that said the riding boundaries, based on the questions that the commission asked, should remain exactly the same, and I have 17 responses from those who believe that the riding boundaries should change.

So, when you go out to the people of the city of St. Catharines, when you talk to those folks regarding the Niagara region and how it should be set up, there is strong evidence to show, from the people themselves, that the first choice would be to leave the boundaries exactly the way they are and that the second choice would be to go with the commission's first iteration.

We're a little different down in Niagara. We've now had three iterations from the commission. We believe—Mr. Allison, Mr. Nicholson, and I—that the original boundary changes, if we were going to make them, really put Niagara in a very strong position. They levelled the playing field concerning what the numbers were going to be for each of the ridings. They actually brought in the Niagara region.

Prior to and as of today, we have a piece of Hamilton that is to be considered as inside the Niagara region, as far as the ridings go. The original changes would have split the Niagara region up equally into four; we're now in a position whereby Dean Allison would have approximately 84,000 constituents and Rob Nicholson, one riding over from him, would have more than 126,000 constituents. So there is a complete imbalance in terms of positioning; there is a complete imbalance in terms of numbers, which I think the commission addressed in its first iteration; it actually put us in a strong position.

Let me conclude, Mr. Chairman, that the rationale makes it clear that communities of interest should in fact be considered as communities in moving forward. We obviously have lots of objections to the types of changes being suggested and would rather keep ourselves as whole as possible—if not as originally, then at least as in the first iteration.

The city council of St. Catharines overwhelmingly supported the first iteration of boundary changes. Minister Jim Bradley, the Liberal member of the provincial parliament endorsed the original changes. I know that they change the riding of Welland, and I'm sure Mr. Allen is going to speak to that. But when you look at it from an overall perspective, it really does speak to the fact that we need to have four ridings that are situated within the Niagara region, four ridings that are actually of the same approximate size and that benefit the communities the most.

I'll leave it there, Mr. Chairman, and will respond, obviously, to any questions that anyone may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Dykstra.

We'll hear Mr. Allison for five minutes.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll keep my comments fairly brief, given the fact that Mr. Dykstra has already covered them off.

I want to add a comment with regard to Hamilton. I know it's been suggested by other members not from Hamilton—I believe there was a Liberal MP who stated it—that Hamilton should be changed.

All the members from Hamilton are unanimous that the changes that they proposed are fine. I want to reiterate that off the top.

The second thing is that I would reiterate what Mr. Dykstra said. That is, the first proposal would seem to make sense. One of the original reasons we were looking at it is to try to rebalance the riding.

My biggest concern is that I'm going from 115,000 to 85,000 people. I believe that Niagara should have four full seats, which we're going to get, but as Mr. Dykstra mentioned, we're going to have one seat that has more than 120,000, and I'm going to have 25,000 people fewer. While the new changes will certainly benefit my riding, based on the last election, I believe it would be nice to have a balance of population.

The other thing that I'll mention concerns community of identity. That was the second concept. Population was one; this was the second.

Certainly the southern part of St. Catharines doesn't necessarily have much to do with Welland. I think one of Mr. Allen's recommendations or thoughts was that Thorold didn't have a lot in common with the rural parts of Niagara, but I'd also venture to say that the southern part of St. Catharines does not have much in common with Thorold and Welland.

I state this for the record. I realize that what we think would make sense is to balance the population, although I realize that's been challenged by this whole concept of communities of interest. You have my letter; I'm not going to rehash it. I just want to put on the record that we certainly supported the first iteration of the recommendations, before we came out with the second and third options.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Allison.

Minister Finley, it's fantastic to have you here today.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I know you have to leave by noon, so we're going to let you make your statement and Mr. Allen make his statement. We'll hope that the members can ask you questions before you have to leave.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you. Hopefully they won't have too many questions.

Mine is a very simple concern. The official report's recommendation says that Haldimand—Norfolk, my riding, would have no changes, and yet the accompanying map shows a change, a change of one concession block up in the centre-north corner.

What is in dispute here, and I haven't been able to settle this, concerns that one concession block. Does it belong to Haldimand County, in which case it should be part of my riding, if we're to maintain the integrity of geopolitical boundaries, or does it indeed belong to the Six Nations reserve, in which case it should go with the adjacent riding; I believe it is Brant.

All I'm asking is, could we get some clarity, so that whatever boundary is there for electoral purposes matches the official geopolitical boundaries?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Mr. Allen, it's great to have you here today too.

We haven't been in committee together for awhile.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Preston. That's very true. It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Mr. Dykstra and Mr. Allison have outlined some of the concerns that they have, and certainly there were concerns expressed in the hearings in Niagara Falls, at which I have to say I was the only MP who actually attended, as did two members of the provincial Parliament, one from the Niagara Falls riding who is a Liberal and one from the Welland riding who is also a New Democrat, with 11 other presenters.

For the Niagara Falls riding, as far as the mayors and councils of Niagara-on-the-Lake and Fort Erie were concerned, they were unanimous in passing resolutions that they wished to stay within the boundaries of the Niagara Falls riding, as much as Justice Valin admitted that indeed this made it a larger riding, but one that fell within the allowable limit.

Notwithstanding Mr. Allison's suggestion and the absolute fact that his riding declines in population, when one looks at the map he has the largest geographical component. In fact, he almost has half the Niagara peninsula, geographically. I'm not suggesting that this is like northern Ontario, if you're in Timmins—James Bay, but in the south it's a pretty big size. He also has four of the fastest-growing communities in the Niagara peninsula inside the Niagara West boundary, which means that it fills out over time.

Clearly, we had some suggestions for the commission. They weren't actually followed through on, but the commission came to some conclusions and changed the map. They had a second hearing in Hamilton, which also included Niagara and which I attended—I believe I was the only witness from Niagara who attended the second hearing—and at that point I suggested to the commission that I was fairly satisfied with what they had done.

They changed it again by moving the boundary in St. Catharines more towards the south, if you will, which more resembled what Mr. Dykstra's riding was—the previous boundary as it is now, minus a sliver on the west end.

My position at this point is that I am very confident and pleased with what the boundaries are as they have been shown in this iteration. So are the mayors of Welland and Port Colborne, and so are the mayors down the riverside because, of the communities of interest that the commission took into consideration, the Niagara peninsula is more of a north-south configuration, the centrepiece being down the Welland Canal.

If you actually look at it, it's Highway 406 and the Welland Canal that drive north to south. When you look at the Niagara River, which is all border communities—Niagara-on-the-Lake, Niagara Falls, Fort Erie—all have border crossings and they're all on the Niagara River. That's exactly what the commission looked at, at the end of the day.

The only last comment I'll make, Mr. Chair, is that the south end of St. Catharines has been part of the configuration of the Welland—Thorold riding for about four decades. So, speaking to the suggestion that somehow the south end of St. Catharines isn't part of the Welland riding, the distinction is that the folks in St. Catharines, and indeed in Thorold and Port Colborne, don't like the name “Welland”. What they want is “Niagara Centre”, and they're quite happy to hear that we're going back to being Niagara Centre. It's really the name Welland that disturbs the folks in those other communities, not actually Niagara Centre.

I'll leave it at that. Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

I'm going to give this panel of witnesses some sort of award for being the briefest. That was fantastic. Three minutes was the top number out of five, and I've never seen politicians use less than half their time.

We'll now go to questions from members.

Mr. Reid, you're going to get five minutes.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Five minutes? Okay. I copied Mr. Hsu after our joint presentation. He had a little timer that he used, and I went and got his software, so I'm now using his timer.

I want to start with Diane Finley, if I may.

I've taken a look at the very thorough set of materials that you have here. The question that occurs to me, if I understand from looking at this map, is that essentially what was an indent—and you can't possibly see what I'm showing here, but the indent southwest of Caledonia—more or less becomes one straight line, instead of there being a jog to the west. Is that correct?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

The upper jog into the grey areas is what's in dispute.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Yes. How many people live in the area that's in question?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

According to poll maps, there is one voter on that block, but the issue that we have not been able to determine is—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

It's a very solid voter, I take it.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

—whether that land belongs to Six Nations reserve or to Haldimand County. We haven't been able to get a straight answer on that.

If it belongs to the reserve, then I support moving it in to keep the reserve intact; if it is indeed part of the County of Haldimand, then I believe it should be included with the riding. But I have been unable to determine whose land it is.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Right.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There are conflicting reports.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Yes. That has been in the news the odd time over the past couple of years.

For the other presenters, Mr. Dykstra, I'd like you to submit your questionnaire to the clerk. She has to translate it before she can circulate it to us. It would be helpful for us to then be able to see what the questions were.

I just want to be clear. Mr. Dykstra, Mr. Allison, and Minister Nicholson—who isn't with us—all have the same agreement.

Mr. Allen, you are not in agreement with what they're saying. Would that be a fair summary, or do you agree with them?

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

In Madam Finley's case, it has no impact on my riding whatsoever, so I have no comment to make about the minister's riding. The discrepancy would be depending on what's being asked for here. If both parties, Mr. Allison and Mr. Dykstra, are asking to go back to the original iteration, then I would be opposed to both of them.

If not—

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Because that affects the boundaries of your riding at that point.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

That's correct.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

If it doesn't affect the boundaries of your riding, then that's not the substance of your point. You came here to make the point that you like your boundaries the way they are now.