Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 7th, 2013

[Barry Devolin, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

The change for me is relatively small. In my current riding I have three townships in Peterborough County. The proposal is to take the two smaller ones away, population-wise, and leave me with the larger one. All we are proposing is that we reverse that. If I'm going to give something to the riding of Peterborough, Cavan Monaghan should be the piece added to Peterborough, instead of the other two rural municipalities. The total number of constituents I have in Peterborough County is about 15,000. It's currently proposed that I give 6,000 to Peterborough and keep 9,000. I just want to reverse that. I would keep the 6,000, and give up the 9,000.

The Township of Cavan Monaghan, which is proposed to be in my riding and which I am proposing should go to Peterborough, has stated that they have a preference of being in the Peterborough riding. The council has passed a motion in favour of what we're talking about today. The other two Peterborough townships that I'm proposing to get back are essentially indifferent. They have been in my riding since the 1960s. Even though they're part of Peterborough County, they've actually been in my riding since before the centennial.

I hope that you will approve that. If you don't, it's not the end of the world, but I think it makes sense on the ground and I think it makes a lot of sense for Mr. Del Mastro in Peterborough.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

[Nycole Turmel, NDP, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Chair, I know that it is there, but we can't see it very well. There's no submission from Mr. Devolin and we can't see it properly on this side.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

What are we looking for, where the ridings are today?

[Nycole Turmel, NDP, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

It doesn't matter, as long as we have something that we can follow. From here it's a lot better. That's what I'm trying to explain.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Do you like it on that screen instead of this screen?

[Nycole Turmel, NDP, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We will have to unhook Mr. O'Toole, then. I guess we can do it.

Can we turn the screen? Will it help you if we turn the screen towards you?

[A voice]

We can't.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We can't because of the projector, okay.

Mr. O'Toole, would you like to go next so we can see your proposal, and then maybe unhook your screens? Let's do it that way. I know it's out of sync, but we'll do it.

Nice to have you here today, Erin. You have five minutes.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much to the committee for allowing me to present to you and through you, Mr. Chair, to the members of the Ontario electoral boundaries commission. I truly appreciate their work. I know this is a hard task. It's like putting a jigsaw puzzle together and changing pieces all the time.

I have a modest proposal I'd like this committee to consider. I'll be able to hand out copies of this presentation to the committee shortly. My main request is to keep the municipality of Clarington whole. The largest community within my riding is the municipality of Clarington, with 85,000 residents. The commission has kept 15,000 of those people outside of the riding and in the Northumberland Riding.

With these changes, we're asking to keep Clarington whole. It's a growing community. It's in the Durham region. It's in the GTA. By taking the 15,000 people out, they're moving into a non-GTA, non-Durham region, more Eastern Ontario riding which they don't have historical ties with. This proposal is supported by the regional level of government in Durham, by the mayor, all council in Clarington and, as you'll see later, by a vast overwhelming majority of the population in Durham.

The next is to maintain the riding name as Durham. The proposed riding would be named Oshawa—Durham. There's clearly a stand-alone riding of Oshawa. My riding of Durham would only take a small portion of north Oshawa, and by not including the names of other communities in the riding, such as Clarington or Scugog, you're essentially excluding larger historic communities within the riding. By keeping the name Durham, it is a riding name description that is inclusive of all the communities within the riding. I think that should be the same, and historically, it has deep roots in Ontario and in Canada.

In order to keep our population in Durham to a manageable size, I'm also complementing the suggestion by my colleague, Colin Carrie, to keep more of Oshawa in his riding, particularly an area around the University of Ontario Institute of Technology. It's known as Oshawa's university. It works directly with Durham College in the south of Mr. Carrie's riding. By giving up a portion of Oshawa that the commission proposed come into Durham, I then have more room to keep Clarington whole, which is my overriding objective.

Here is the current riding compared to the proposal. The proposal makes some smart changes, but as I said, it misses keeping Clarington on the far right of the right photo.... It's not kept whole. There's a lot of consternation in the riding because of that.

Compared to the commission proposal and my counterproposal, you'll see we take a little smaller slice of urbanized Oshawa and we pick up the communities of Newtonville, Newcastle, and Orono to keep Clarington whole, to keep that largest municipality within the Durham riding whole. It's totally in line with section 15.2 of the act, which permits a community of history, a community of identity, a community of interest to be kept together. It's still within the population range provided by section 15 of the act. It is really just skirting a few streets of difference and giving those to Mr. Carrie, and even though his riding will be larger, it is also permitted by section 15 of the act.

I also held a riding survey that was advertised in all local newspapers. Of the respondents in the communities in eastern Clarington that would be taken out, overwhelmingly, 90% said that their community of interest and identity is with Clarington. That's an overwhelming number. Only 3% in the survey said that their community of interest was with Port Hope, the Northumberland riding. The highest response for riding name by the population in Durham was to maintain the Durham name. It's inclusive to all communities large and small within the riding and has historic roots.

With respect, Mr. Chair, and through you to the commission, these proposals are clearly in line with section 15. They're clearly intended to keep the community together, being Clarington, and to keep a riding name that reflects all residents of the riding, and within a population range clearly allowed for those very reasons.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Perfect.

Mr. Del Mastro or Mr. Carrie, who wants to go next?

Mr. Carrie, please.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I'll follow up with my colleague, Mr. O'Toole. I would also like to thank the commission and all of you for allowing me the opportunity to be here today.

First, I'd like to state I would love to have all of Oshawa in my constituency; however, since it has the largest population in Durham region, it's basically too large for one MP.

It became clear during the local hearings that residents wanted Oshawa to be as Oshawa-centric as possible. There were strong requests at the public hearings to keep Durham region and the communities within it, such as Ajax, Whitby, Pickering, Clarington, and Oshawa whole. It was apparent that residents of the region expressed the idea that communities of interest were substantially more important to them than compliance with the provincial quota.

For example, one of the big issues, and Mr. O'Toole did point this out, was that since the last redistribution the University of Ontario Institute of Technology has opened in Oshawa and is viewed as an essential part of the community, both for the present but also for the future.

There are two campuses, one in the north and one downtown. The proposed boundary changes by the commission unfortunately would split the two campuses into two different ridings. This would be unacceptable. From everything I've heard, it would be ideal to keep the university intact in one riding. Aside from keeping it intact, it also gives the students and the faculty consistency in their representation.

I've had discussions with the mayor, city councillors and, as I said, I monitored the hearings. It was very clear that people wanted to extend the riding as far north as possible and keep it as Oshawa-centric as possible.

The changes I'm requesting, as Mr. O'Toole said, do fall within the 25% plus or minus outlined by the commission. By changing this slightly, it does have a domino effect with other ridings, but I've consulted my colleagues and everyone supports the proposal.

As far as an argument made before the commission is concerned, I did not have an official proposal before the commission as I wanted to continue to listen to my local residents on the matter, through the hearings and phone calls and other methods of correspondence with my office.

While the proposal before you is a consolidation of the views expressed during the hearings and communications with my office and proposes different northern lines, in principle it's the same argument we heard before the commission, in other words, to keep it as Oshawa-centric as possible and go as far north as we can.

As I stated, it was clear that a wide range of constituents wanted to extend as far north as possible with the full historical boundaries to the west and to the east, and to be Oshawa-centric. Again, I do have support for this proposal.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, colleagues.

I'm going to present a couple of different things.

There are a couple of areas where I differ slightly from my colleagues. I'm going to present some of the views of my constituents, which are not supported, and then I'll come back to a proposal that is supported. That being said, my constituents are always right and my colleagues can sometimes be wrong.

That's a joke. My jokes don't always go over, but I try.

To begin with, I do take issue with the new boundaries proposed for the Peterborough electoral district, which have become a serious concern for many of my constituents.

During the public consultation phase, there was no visit to Peterborough, but there was a visit to Northumberland. While I suggested to my municipal councils, local leaders, and others that they may wish to express comment during that period, they did not, with the exception of the municipality of Cavan Monaghan, which did comment, as they were being looped into a riding with Northumberland, which they didn't want to be a part of.

The concern is that their lack of participation has been seen as being indifferent to the process, but I can assure you that they are not. The suggestion that the municipalities of Otonabee-South Monaghan and Asphodel-Norwood be moved into the riding of Northumberland has not been well received at all. I have motions that have been passed at both councils for the committee, as well as about 40 pages of petitions that have been completed by area residents. These are small rural townships, so you can imagine that if 40 pages of petitions can be filled by people who are voicing their concerns, this proposal has gone over in those areas like a lead balloon.

How do we fix it? I think that becomes a challenge.

The suggestion right now that the boundaries commission has come up with makes very little sense. If we look at the east side of Peterborough, we see Otonabee-South Monaghan township. It is actually historically part of what is called East City, in the city of Peterborough. It's been stripped away and it's where an awful lot of development in the city is now occurring. There's a lot of collaboration between Otonabee-South Monaghan and the city.

Highway 7, the Trans-Canada Highway which connects Peterborough and Ottawa, is the main arterial road that goes between Peterborough and all of the eastern townships in Peterborough County. You would actually drive out of Peterborough for about half an hour before you would drive back into the riding, in Havelock. It effectively makes Havelock-Belmont-Methuen an island within the riding. I know it appears as one land mass. The reality is that you drive out of the riding for a long time to drive back into it. There really aren't any arterial roads in this area at all. It makes it quite dysfunctional.

There is quite a bit of trade that goes on between the economies of Havelock and areas to the south, which would be Campbellford. For example, residents in Havelock will often use the Campbellford hospital, and so forth, and that is in the riding of Northumberland. For whatever reason, the boundaries commission elected to leave Havelock in this riding while they took the other two municipalities of Otonabee-South Monaghan and Asphodel-Norwood and moved them into Northumberland.

In many ways, and this may sound strange, Rice Lake to the south has often acted almost like Lake Ontario in this area, whereby there are almost two distinct economic regions, north and south, on either side of the lake.

One of the proposals that has been passed, which there are recommendations for and is supported by Peterborough County Council, could actually see the townships of Otonabee-South Monaghan and Asphodel-Norwood move back in and have Cavan Monaghan stripped out and moved south to Northumberland. I specifically objected to this in the process. It would also have the two northern townships, which Mr. Devolin outlined earlier, of Trent Lakes and North Kawartha moved back into the riding of Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock. That is an option. It's not supported by Cavan, and it's not supported by my colleagues. It was supported by the preponderance of members at county council, but not all of them.

The one that has unanimous agreement among my colleagues would see Havelock-Belmont-Methuen join with the other two eastern townships, Asphodel-Norwood and Otonabee-South Monaghan. You would effectively have all three eastern townships in Peterborough County put back together, which makes sense.

You would move Cavan-Monaghan, which is on the southwest portion of Peterborough; it's where Peterborough airport, Fleming College, and one of my major high schools are. It would make sense for Cavan-Monaghan to be a part of the city of Peterborough.

This would add Cavan-Monaghan in, take North Kawartha out, take Trent Lakes out, and would add Havelock-Belmont-Methuen to the riding of Northumberland.

I would also strongly recommend a name change to both ridings. One could be, for example, “Peterborough—Kawartha”, recognizing both the city of Peterborough and the Kawartha Lakes. The other riding could be called “Northumberland—Peterborough South”. The word “Peterborough” should be in both riding names, as both would contain parts of Peterborough County.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to questions and comments.

Mr. Menegakis, let's go with seven minutes.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our colleagues for appearing before us today.

I have a number of questions, but I want to start with you, Mr. Del Mastro. I want to be clear on what it is you would like to see.

Could you quickly describe what you propose?

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Sure.

Obviously, as I said earlier, the riding tended to be quite happy with the boundaries as they were prior to the commission's redesignating them. The removal of the two southern townships, Otonabee-South Monaghan and Asphodel-Norwood, which are divided by the lake and the river, has been very controversial.

While they left this particular riding with Havelock-Belmont-Methuen in Peterborough, what I have proposed and what there is agreement for is to put all three—Otonabee-South Monaghan, which is where I live, Asphodel-Norwood, and Havelock-Belmont-Methuen—together with the new riding of Northumberland, and to call that riding Northumberland—Peterborough South; and to add the two northern townships of Trent Lakes and North Kawartha back into Mr. Devolin's riding of Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, and then add Cavan-Monaghan back into the riding of Peterborough.

So you're taking three townships out of the proposal for Peterborough and adding one back in. It balances the populations, roughly. The new riding of what is now Peterborough would have 112,000; the new riding of Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock would have 109,000; and the riding of Northumberland—Peterborough South would have 112,000 as well.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay, thank you. That clears that up and actually answers my second question as to what that would do to the population.

One of the questions we ask all colleagues who are appearing before us is whether they have discussed their proposed changes with all their adjoining colleagues. As you can appreciate, it's a lot easier for us as a committee to make recommendations when there is congruence in the objectives of the colleagues.

Perhaps I could ask all four of you to respond to that question.

Mr. Carrie.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much, Costas.

What the commission proposed originally was to basically slice Oshawa north and south and to bring it all across to Durham with Mr. O'Toole. I think Mr. O'Toole would agree with me that we got so much negative feedback on that. Our communities feel that they should be distinct communities. Under the original proposal, Ajax had theirs, Pickering had theirs, Whitby had theirs, and both of ours were split in such a way that we would have multiple MPs serving multiple cities.

I commend the commission, because I think that what they proposed was something the community wanted. They obviously listened to the hearings and the input from the community. The mayors are happy...the communities of interest.

The only slight modification that I'm asking is to have a little bit more of the north, which fits within the range proposed by the commission. It also allows a major institution, which is the university, which 10 years ago was just beginning and now is a major part of Oshawa—

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Is that OUAC?

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

It's UOIT.

The proposal I'm putting forward would allow it to be incorporated into Oshawa as well. The domino effect would also give Mr. O'Toole the ability to have Clarington.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. O'Toole.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

If you refer to the map on the right-hand side, you see that it represents all of our ridings and our colleague Mr. Norlock's riding. You will see that the ridings we are proposing to the committee would all serve the communities of interest within the ridings better. We have presented the reasons, and they all fit together.

The small riding on the far west, at the bottom all along the lake, is Oshawa. That's the largest urbanized part of this area. Therefore, Mr. Carrie runs into the challenge of exceeding the population quota, but we feel that he should have more of Oshawa as a single seat and keep the university. Then I will have a portion of north Oshawa in Durham, and that would let me keep Clarington whole, which my community really wants.

You'll see Mr. Devolin's riding to the north and Mr. Del Mastro's below it to the south. The changes proposed for both reflect the geography and communities of interest and history. Then Mr. Norlock's riding, on the bottom, which will have the lowest population, still keeps the historic communities within Northumberland—Cobourg and Port Hope—together, and as per Mr. Del Mastro's remarks, Campbellford and a lot of the communities of interest within the area are kept together.

We are all in accordance with the changes and their impact on neighbouring ridings, and they're all within the guidelines of section 15 of the act.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Did you want to weigh in on this at all, Mr. Devolin?