Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 1st, 2014

[Diane Bergeron]

Yes. Sorry.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

May I suggest that you reset Madame Latendresse's time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'm clearly watching that, and we'll make sure that we honour her time well.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you. That's very kind.

I want to thank the both of you for your remarks today. They were very informative. We're quite glad we were able to hear from you.

Today, I'd like to discuss one of the biggest changes being made to the Elections Canada Act. It concerns the role of Elections Canada as described in section 18.

Bill C-23 would amend the Elections Canada Act in such a way as to prevent the Chief Electoral Officer from giving the public much information as regards people with disabilities. That information concerns “the measures for assisting electors with a disability to access a polling station . . . or to mark a ballot.” Those are the changes being sought.

Section 18(1) of the Elections Canada Act currently reads as follows:

The Chief Electoral Officer may implement public education and information programs to make the electoral process better known to the public, particularly to those persons and groups most likely to experience difficulties in exercising their democratic rights.

Would you say that the groups you represent are among those who have greater difficulty than the general public when it comes to exercising their democratic rights?

[Kory Earle]

Thank you for that.

To answer your question, the problem with campaigns is simply that when you look at better educating people, whether under section 18 as it currently is until the bill is passed or under the revised version thereafter, often politicians make decisions, and I believe you need to leave it up to the electorate to have that campaign move forward.

I can tell you right now that the question then lies ahead, whom do people contact? How do people know about something? You're looking at all kinds of broader disability, whether it be linked with CNIB or whether it be intellectual disability, or literacy. You're not going to reach the broader groups in the way you can now.

I can say that I am part of an organization that is notified, but there are a hundred that are not that deal with a broader disability than we do. It goes back and forth. I believe that the Chief Electoral Officer should have the power to really ensure that information is followed.

Why is it being changed? When changes happen, that concerns me more, because with some of the changes that are implanted, we don't know until the act comes into force whether they're going to have a damaging impact or whether they're going to have a changing impact. We don't know. That can be a matter of great concern.

So I just caution the committee that when you're looking at this, talk to people with disabilities from coast to coast, just as you are doing today. Talk to people about what their experience has been previously and what it could potentially be if this section were passed into law.

That would be my comment. But you're looking at what disabilities there are. Again, homelessness and invisible disabilities are being ignored. We must carry those forward as well.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Ms. Bergeron, would you care to comment on the subject?

[Diane Bergeron]

My key comment would be that the people with disabilities out there are so numerous that the groups of people with disabilities don't know them all.

When it comes to people who are blind or partially sighted, CNIB is a service organization that provides assistance to people with vision loss. But there are many groups in Canada that are made up of people with disabilities who would welcome the opportunity to sit down with anybody from Elections Canada to talk about their experiences.

Reaching those communities is very important. But I think the key piece for us is again that not everybody who is blind or partially sighted or has other disabilities is a member of groups or organizations or is registered with a particular group. The information about how to vote, where to vote, whom to contact, and about training for people so that they understand different things should be out in the broader population, ensuring that all the information is accessible to them, because not everybody is going to go to an organization such as CNIB.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

You talked about a problem that blind or partially sighted people, in particular, have with respect to providing proof of their address. Usually, it's fairly easy to show a piece of identification, but providing proof of address appears to be problematic.

In your view, does eliminating the possibility of using a voucher to prove one's identity or address impede people when it comes to voting?

[Diane Bergeron]

I think it will impede some of the people who are blind or partially sighted in Canada to not have a vouching system. We have had some discussions with the minister, and for those individuals who do have a CNIB card, you can put your address on the card. There are some discussions around getting that as a proof of residence as well as being an identification.

There are issues with the vouching as well. If vouching isn't available, there will be some blind and partially sighted people in this country who will have a difficult time obtaining the identification they will need.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Lamoureux.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

I do appreciate the presentations that both of you have made.

A couple of things come to my mind. First and foremost is that there is an ongoing need to look at ways in which we can improve our elections so that we have full participation.

Last night in some of the presentations they talked about the dignity of the vote. I can catch a little bit of that in your presentation in particular, Ms. Bergeron, in that you want to be able to go and vote. You don't want to have to tell someone to place your X beside a particular candidate or a particular party. Being able to mark your own ballot if you are visually impaired is something that is really important.

In listening to the presentations, what crossed my mind is proposed section 18. It does put in serious limitations for Elections Canada. We had a motion that passed a number of years ago, which received all-party support, in essence mandating Elections Canada to reach out and participate in more youth activities, in the production of materials and so forth. This is something that it would not have the ability to do if this legislation were to pass. Proposed section 18 seems to be a problem area for a wide variety of reasons.

If proposed section 18 is not amended, how would both of you, as heads of organizations, feel about that? To what degree do you think it needs to be amended?

[Diane Bergeron]

From the perspective of CNIB, the amendments that we would like to see are specifically around strengthening and being more directive with the Chief Electoral Officer to do the testing and to create a more accessible voting process. That's our key issue that we would like to put forward.

If that's not amended, we would then be reliant on the Chief Electoral Officer to decide that he wants to do that, or reliant on government to say, “You need to go do that and give them a pilot.” If it's in the bill and in the legislation, they would be required to, and they would be more focused on it.

What I can say is that in the last federal election, I went to the polling station by myself, but with my dog. As good as these dogs are, they don't read. I went to the polling station, and they gave me someone who took me through the process. They took me into the little cubicle and I told them who to mark the ballot for. They marked it, and my dog and I left.

After I left, I wondered who I voted for, because I didn't know that person from anybody. I didn't know their name. I didn't know who they were. All I knew was that they promised somebody that they would mark it honestly and that they would keep my ballot secret. But I didn't know that person. I didn't have any clue. I could have voted for somebody completely different; I had no idea.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mrs. Bergeron, you gave an excellent presentation and you made reference to a talking computer that assisted you in giving that presentation. Given technology that we have today, do you believe that you would be able to have that franchise to vote without the assistance of someone else?

[Diane Bergeron]

I have voted completely independently and in secret in municipal elections.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Are you afforded the opportunity to meet with Elections Canada? CNIB is a recognized institution here in Canada. Surely to goodness if as an organization you wanted to meet with Elections Canada they are going to listen, are they not?

[Diane Bergeron]

Yes. We have opportunities to meet with Elections Canada. I also sit on the Elections Canada advisory committee, as does Kory. So we are in discussions with Elections Canada at this point.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Obviously you've shared this concern with Elections Canada. Have they taken any action whatsoever in terms of being able to deal with it?

[Diane Bergeron]

I personally have only started with the process of the advisory committee and we've only had one meeting last month. So that process has just started. But in the past CNIB has been in contact with Elections Canada but I wasn't a part of those processes.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Now you realize that if this bill were to pass unamended, particularly with proposed section 18, even if Elections Canada wanted to do a further study and wanted to come up with promotional materials, it would be hampered because of this legislation. Are you aware of that?

[Diane Bergeron]

I think the process that is in place becomes more onerous for getting permission to do that. If it was amended to make the process more directive the Chief Electoral Officer would have to go through that process. If the amendments aren't made and it stays more permissive, then I don't believe it would encourage Elections Canada to go through a more onerous process than they already do, given that there hasn't been a whole lot done to date.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Earle, I'll go to you just to reinforce that aspect.

There are many things that I believe. This legislation is terrible from my personal perspective, the whole process and the whole nine yards. I want to focus on how we try to meet the future needs of the electorate by enfranchising more to participate in elections. It would seem there is a lot of validity to a lot of the things we are hearing here this morning.

What are your thoughts in regard to tying the hands of Elections Canada, if we do not amend it in terms of being able to do future studies with the idea of taking action on this issue? Do you have some thoughts on that you'd like to share?

[Diane Bergeron]

I don't necessarily think that this bill would tie their hands. It's not my viewpoint that it would tie them and hamper them from doing it but I think it would make that process more onerous, which means it would be less likely that Elections Canada would want to go through a more onerous process in order to do something.

This act does give them permission but we had that already. So I'm not sure and at this point I think the wording needs to be changed into making it more directive and that would really push this forward. I think that would be a great deal of benefit to people with disabilities.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Earle, could you provide a comment?

[Kory Earle]

Absolutely. Let's make very clear that a lot of this material that is established is not clear language to people with disabilities. When we are talking about campaigns, whether it be proposed section 18, we talk about democracy in Canada and we talk about all kinds of other things. There's no question from our membership it's a huge concern in terms of eligibility, because people used to be able to go to the polling stations...and not everybody has an ID in Canada. When you talk about ID let's be very clear on what kind of ID is being asked for.

The perspective that we're saying is to have an open mind. Elections Canada should....

I attend a new committee and I don't hear a whole lot of campaigns that go on that involve people with disabilities. The only time I hear about it is sometimes on the news, but I don't actually hear a whole lot of initiatives taking place. I think that's a huge concern. We want to involve all kinds of disabilities, yet you don't hear about these campaigns and you don't hear about how people with disabilities can get involved. If they can get involved, it's not in plain language. It's not material that people can turn to. If you turn around and you give someone this and they look at it, they throw it away because they don't know.... There is not a clear understanding of what it is and what the definitions are. That's where you're going to run into problems.

That's why we're saying even on election day at an advanced poll there are all kinds of people running, yet voters don't know who they are because there is no picture at the polling station or advance poll; there is no logo, no party. That would have an impact on Canadians with disabilities from coast to coast. It will give them hope that this government and all parties support their initiative.