Okay.
What happened was that there was an attempt to produce a motion finding the government in contempt of Parliament, one that would be dealt with at an in camera meeting. The motion was distributed by mistake before we were in camera. Then there was a motion to go in camera. I took the motion and I simply went and said that I didn't care whether we were in camera. It showed a contempt of the process to ram through a motion defeating a government in camera and to make it an unamendable motion, that is to say, one to which amendments could not be added.
I'm sorry, it wasn't a motion; it was a report that was going to be adopted in camera, with no amendments permitted, no dissenting report permitted. This struck me as an outrageous abuse. I actually took the paper and left the room to go and hand it to the media. When they realized this was going to happen, the other side thought better of the whole thing and let the proceedings occur in public.
So that was a problem. I look at these kinds of problems that have existed in the past. I'm only pointing to the ones I know of. I have no doubt that one could find all parties guilty of similar abuses at some point in the past. Every party has been in the role of Sir Galahad at some point in the past. Just looking at it, I can see some value in reining in the in camera rule.
But it seems to me that the fundamental problem we have here is that we're dealing with a simple rule put in place with no caveats governing it, because of the complexities involved in designing detailed rules. The in camera rule where you simply have a vote without having a debate, in or out, is copying the model of the House of Commons itself. Our House of Commons copies the British House of Commons, in which there was a simple motion that could be requested by a new member—we're now going back to the 17th or 18th century—that all strangers be cleared from the House. That was the equivalent of an in camera meeting. The meeting would then be secret.
This was at a time when all meetings were in essence secret in one form or another. It was against the rules to take notes, to report on what happened. People actually would sneak out and publish newspaper reports. Eventually, because the House of Commons found that these reports were frequently distorted, they hired one of the more reliable reporters, a Mr. Hansard, who began to publish his reports. But prior to that time, the attempt was made to keep all meetings off the record. When that was thought to be unsatisfactory, simply clearing the House was the rule. So we have a practice that goes back several hundred years. Trying to move from something that has been regulated by what we hope was common sense—there are lots of places where common sense has failed, but it's been regulated that way—and turn it into a set of firm rules requires more than a motion that is produced without some kind of study and some kind of documentation.
So I'm left asking the same question of the New Democrats who proposed this—I think, in goodwill—when they asked me the same, when I was proposing a motion on a different subject that we finally dealt with earlier today. That is, given that we are descended from the Westminster House of Commons, there must be other examples. These may well include the Senate, the houses of the various provinces, the parliaments of other countries, the parliaments of places like Australia, and other national units that have dealt with this.
I heard Mr. Cullen mentioning the way in which the in camera rules are dealt with at the municipal level in his province. I know that in Ontario they're not terribly satisfactory. My point is to have mini-salutary examples that one could draw upon if one is seriously trying to design something that's a little more elaborate. This wasn't presented to us. I'm not suggesting that it wasn't researched, but I am suggesting that I am not at this point aware of it.
The New Democrats made the motion. They could do one of several things. Number one, they could withdraw it and come back to us when they've got pertinent information that would help us. Number two, they could approach us and work out something more suitable that involves additional study. But if they aren't willing to do anything other than to have this, I wouldn't be in a position to vote intelligently in favour of it. I say this because, though I'm not an expert in this field, I just don't know if it's not more problematic than the status quo.
But I think the initiative is a good one, and I am glad they suggested it—even though, if it stays in this format, I'm afraid I would have to vote against it.
Thank you.