Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 9th, 2014

[Wanda Mulholland]

Burnaby is very large geographically. There are lots of parks, and a number of our homeless folks live in camps in the parks. It would be impossible to identify an address other than the agency.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay, I got that.

We have offered the use of attestation forms to vouch for persons who have no ID. The way you phrased it, I assume you didn't mean that literally because attestation forms are one thing and vouching is a separate thing. I assume you can issue an attestation form for a number of different people. You don't have to live in the same poll. However, you must be someone who is in a responsible position at a soup kitchen or a shelter, or one of a limited number of agencies.

Those are actually two separate things that you were talking about, I assume. Is that right?

[Wanda Mulholland]

Yes.

The person who has filled out those forms has been the supervisor at the homeless outreach program exclusively.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Alright, that's helpful to me.

Mr. Allen, you mentioned how you have people vouch for individuals to establish an account at Pigeon Park Savings. I'm assuming that this is not quite the same as the vouching that is used by Elections Canada. I could be wrong; it might be exactly the same.

I'm guessing that the individual who is doing the vouching is effectively doing something more like the attestation. Would that be true, or am I wrong?

[Nathan Allen]

Well, I mean it's a case-by-case basis. However, I have personally opened accounts where a person moves into a new housing project and there's a neighbour who's had an account with us for awhile, similar to a voter who has voted for awhile and is already on the voters list. They say, “He doesn't have ID right now, but he needs to open an account, and I can vouch for him”. I do open that account. We haven't experienced any fraud as a result of that practice.

That accessibility has meant a great deal to a lot of people in the neighbourhood.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I can imagine.

They're putting money in, though. I assume they don't come in and say, “I'll vouch for someone so he can now take money out”.

Is that right?

[Nathan Allen]

Of course, there's no money in the account until they put money in.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Right, okay.

I'm not sure how much I can pursue that because I'm still having some trouble getting the mental picture.

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You have zero time left.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Well, I won't get to ask that question then.

Thank you very much. You've been helpful.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We'll go to Madame Latendresse for seven minutes, please.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by thanking the witnesses for being here today.

I would like to thank you especially for the work that you are doing in general. You are helping the most disadvantaged people in our society. Without people like you, they would have absolutely nothing. You have my sincere thanks.

We are currently examining changes that are going to be made to the Canada Elections Act. Among other things, people will no longer be able to use the voter information card or be able to be vouched for in order to vote, and that is a problem. It is true that not a lot of people used those systems. We know that a great majority of Canadians have a driver's license and that is all you need in order to vote. In reality, however, those two measures were the safety net that made sure that every Canadian citizen had the right to vote. It is a basic right under our Constitution.

The people you are representing today are those we are discussing here. Those whom, basically, society has forgotten. But they still have the right to vote. The vouching system and the new system using the voter information card are two measures that made sure that no one was left by the wayside.

I have here figures showing that, depending on the way in which you calculate the number, we presently have between 300,000 and 900,000 people in Canada considered homeless or with no fixed address. That number is very high. I would not have believed that it could be so high. It is people like you who have to run around to provide the documentation those people need in order to be able to vote. What you are doing already is super. But this measure gives homeless shelters and soup kitchens the entire responsibility of providing the documentation. In my opinion, that is putting an enormous burden on resources that are already overused. You do not have a lot of time and energy to be able to spend on it.

Could I hear your comments and thoughts on the matter?

Ms. Mulholland, you can answer first, if you like.

[Wanda Mulholland]

We're committed to assisting the people who are in need. There has never been any concern on our part about the time that it takes because our priority is to provide an opportunity for people to vote if they wish.

The idea that this might be removed is of great concern to us.

[Nathan Allen]

I could add to that.

Some days, working in the neighbourhood, it's really hectic. There are a lot of things going on. If we're wanting, on election day, to help someone to vote—people who are disabled, in wheelchairs, have trouble with mobility issues, to find the individual in their poll to walk with them, to be the voucher for that individual—to organize all of that takes a lot out of the day but that's still the only opportunity that person would have to vote.

All of these things are good. The application forms are good. What all of the political parties do in terms of trying to make sure their own supporters have credentials ahead of election day is a good thing that happens. But for folks who are exceptionally marginalized, without that other mechanism that allows someone to vouch for them, effectively they do not have the right to vote.

I appreciate what you say. We're happy to try to enfranchise as many people as possible, but it is a lot of work and we wish we had more individuals to help people vote. We would probably increase the homeless vote as a result, but we can only do so much on election day and we go flat out.

The people I work with who attempt to help people in any way they can—whether it be with transportation or help finding credentials or through finding an individual to vouch for people—go from eight until eight and we're always disappointed that we haven't gotten to everybody. We never will get to everybody.

[Dr. Abram Oudshoorn]

I might highlight that these agencies have limited budgets and they have a lot of important decisions that they have to make in use of those budgets. Ultimately, all of the homeless serving agencies want to end homelessness, which means providing people with safe, secure, permanent, and affordable housing. However, they provide other services along the way and many will actually have an ID fund that will fund part of the replacement fees of this identification.

The more time, energy, and resources that go into identification, the less time, energy, and resources we have to truly end homelessness by providing people with the housing supports that they need.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I am going to give the rest of my time to my colleague.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'd like to pick up a little, if I could, on the voter information card. The government gets very upset when we say voter identification card because that's what we think it should be.

You've got a lot of experience with that. I even heard, maybe on the previous panel, forgive me if that's the case, but someone gave testimony and said the amount—I think it was one of you—of work it takes to get the voter identification card because that, with vouching, could get you a ballot and you'd be allowed to vote.

The Chief Electoral Officer is allowed to designate whatever ID, except the law is now going to prohibit the voter identification card from being used as a piece of ID. How is that going to impact the people you're trying to help on election day? The fact that those voter identification cards, if they've gone through all the hoops of getting them and they're lucky enough to have them, aren't even going to be ID at the polling station? How many Canadians stand to be turned away because this document won't be recognized as ID in your view?

[Nathan Allen]

That's almost the most depressing thing because you're talking about someone who went out of their way already to register to vote or they've voted in the past. They're an active Canadian citizen, but for whatever reason they don't have identification on election day. Likely a lot of people will assume that card will allow them to vote and it will just be the most depressing situation where someone takes that time, goes to vote, and then something that allowed them to vote in the past no longer allows them to vote. It's depressing. I don't want to see that happen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson.

[Dr. Abram Oudshoorn]

If I may.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

A quick answer, sure.

[Dr. Abram Oudshoorn]

I'll just paint a picture of individuals who we see this with often. It might be some who do maintain some kind of permanent address. We see this for example with people in cyclical experiences of poverty where there may be a familial home, but they themselves are experiencing homelessness, they've lost all their identification and are able to come and go from the familial home at times and to retain or obtain that voter ID card.

I would say it's a significant portion of people experiencing both homelessness, but also poverty in general, who will be unable to vote because of being unable to use that card.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

They said they wanted lots of people to vote, and we're hearing they're not going to be able to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Simms, you have seven minutes, please.