Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 10th, 2014

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

But you want Elections Canada to get down to the brass knuckles and prosecute fraud—

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

What I want is for this committee, for us as parliamentarians, and for Elections Canada to plug every hole that they can possibly plug, knowing full well that there are going to be inventive people out there who will find some way around it. This will be an ongoing challenge.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Sure, and I agree with that wholeheartedly. Elections Canada also wants to deal with issues related to fraud. They want to do that, and that's one of the reasons why they came up with the recommendation that they need and require the ability to compel a witness, something that provincial jurisdictions actually can do in terms of their independent election officers. Don't you believe that if you want Elections Canada to get to the truth of the allegations of fraud that, at the very least, they should be able to compel a witness to come forward and tell what has transpired?

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

From my understanding, Mr. Lamoureux, Elections Canada has the tools necessary, the police forces have and so on to prosecute whatever the offence is. They have those—

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

But if Election Canada tells you that if they had the ability to compel a witness and if that would help them deal with those fraudsters, potential fraudsters, would that not be something you would want to support, given the fact that other agencies have that ability?

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

That is something this committee should be considering and I know it is as part of the study of bill C-23. So I would leave it to the wisdom of the committee in the final result.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

I agree with you, and I hope wisdom will prevail on this particular issue. I somewhat suspect that it might not, but I'm an optimist.

Elections Canada also has a rule to tell people the purpose of those voter identification cards, would you not agree?

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Well, they call them voter information cards, not voter identification cards. That just points out that whatever—

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Voter information cards....

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

—the problem and potential future problem, if the ID requirements aren't properly met....

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

So there's an educational component there for Elections Canada.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Apparently for us, too....

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

For us and for all Canadians, and who best to lead it but Elections Canada, would you not agree?

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Elections Canada certainly has a role to play in that, absolutely.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Would you not recognize that the limitations in proposed section 18 will actually put limitations on Elections Canada and the type of things that it wants to do? So for example, if it wants to do a study on what it is that you're suggesting that they do with the idea of coming up with recommendations, if this legislation passes, it will prevent them from doing that.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Well, what we were just talking about was the education of people on where to vote, how to vote, what they need to vote, which is where the voter information card or other forms of ID come from.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Right. But you know at the end of the day, what we're both trying to achieve is justice on the issue. If we want to be able to deal with improving the voter identification or voter whatever it is that you would like to phrase it, then it's best to enable Elections Canada to do the necessary research and advertising so that Canadians and politicians, myself included, are aware of what those cards are all about and their purpose. Correct...?

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Fundamentally or philosophically, I don't disagree with that. But again it's not me calling them the voter information card—

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

So we'll have to wait—

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

—it's the Chief Electoral Officer.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

We'll have to wait and see if the government actually brings forward those amendments. Again, I'm an optimist. Let's hope they do that.

You know, when we look at the VIC cards.... In Ottawa, I have a one-bedroom apartment. I go there periodically to check the mail. On the window ledges you see all these...what were former tenants, I suspect. They all have IDs, addresses written on them; I suspect they're bills. Who knows what's all there? But I would suggest to you that there are some flaws within those data banks, also government data banks. Do you think that there is a perfect data bank that's out there?

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

No, absolutely not. But Elections Canada needs to do everything, and it will never be perfect because people move obviously all the time.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

That's right.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I don't know what the solution is but they need to scrub the lists much more thoroughly.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

That's right. But you know what, you hit the nail right on. All data banks have flaws in them, right?