Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 9th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We'll call the meeting to order, please.

In the first hour today, we're in public. We have Mr. Bosc, Mr. Vickers, and Mr. McDonell.

Mr. Bosc, I understand you have an opening statement, so we'd like you to go first. This is on the order of reference of Thursday, September 25, on a question of privilege relating to the free movement of members within the parliamentary precinct.

We'll hear an opening statement from Mr. Bosc and then we'll go to questions from members.

[Marc Bosc, Acting Clerk, House of Commons]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank the committee for the invitation to appear today on the question of privilege raised by the member for Acadie—Bathurst regarding the free movement of members within the parliamentary precinct.

I'm accompanied by Mr. Kevin Vickers, Sergeant-at-Arms of the House of Commons, and by Mr. Patrick McDonell, Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms and director general of security services.

We are here to provide context to assist with your inquiry into the events that occurred on September 25, 2014, which then gave rise to the question of privilege.

In these opening remarks, I will outline the importance of the unimpeded access of members, describe the roles and responsibilities of our security partners, and explain how we prepare for the special events that take place within the parliamentary precinct.

The House administration takes the issue of members' access to the parliamentary precinct, as well as the issue of the safety and security of all those who come on the Hill, very seriously. A key challenge with respect to security on the Hill is to guarantee security and access for all without infringing on members' rights and privileges. This is a task that is challenging on any given day, but particularly so on days when special events take place.

Unfortunately, this committee has previously had to study the matter of a breach of a member’s privileges during an official visit. It summarized the importance of members’ unimpeded access to the Hill in its 26th report from the last parliamentary session, and I quote:

Members of the House of Commons should not, in any case, be denied or delayed access to the Hill and the precinct when they are known to be Members. The Member’s pin, the Member’s House of Commons ID card and any other piece of identification, as well as the use of the booklet by the security forces, may help to establish the identity of a Member, but he or she should not be denied access when he or she has forgotten his or her ID and/or pin and the security agent recognizes him or her to be a Member of this House.

The 26th report also goes on to describe what should be done in terms of trying to identify a member of Parliament before a decision to refuse him or her access to the parliamentary precinct is taken. Its recommendations set the standard we strive to apply on an everyday basis, as well as during special events.

In terms of roles and responsibilities, security in the parliamentary precinct is a shared responsibility involving various partners, and in the vast majority of cases, these partnerships work efficiently and effectively. I would like to reiterate that the security services of the Senate and the House of Commons respectively are responsible for security inside the parliamentary buildings and within the areas occupied by their respective chambers.

The grounds of Parliament Hill, on the other hand, are under the jurisdiction of the RCMP. Notably, on the grounds, the RCMP is responsible for providing immediate armed response, monitoring daily activities, and screening vehicle access.

A key step towards interoperability was taken five years ago through the creation of the master security planning office, which is comprised of representatives from the Senate, House of Commons and RCMP. The mandate of this office is to provide guidance and strategic direction, and to ensure a proactive and coordinated security approach within the precinct.

Specifically, the House of Commons security services works closely with its security partners to help ensure that special events do not adversely affect the functioning of Parliament, including members’ access to and within the precinct. As you would expect, there is a great deal of planning that goes into the preparation for the security of a VIP/state visit to Parliament Hill. The goal is to provide the appropriate level of security relative to the potential risk to the visiting VIP or head of state, while respecting the traditions and practices of our Parliament.

I can assure you that the issue of parliamentary privilege is repeatedly stressed throughout the planning of such events. Please allow me to repeat that member access to and around the parliamentary precinct is continually prioritized by the House administration.

House of Commons Security Services initiates its planning upon receipt of a draft scenario from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development. Our security services representatives then typically participate in an advance visit to Centre Block along with DFATD protocol, the Prime Minister's office, parliamentary protocol and others.

Ongoing meetings with the key partners, including security and protocol representatives from the Senate, RCMP, and, for larger visits, the Ottawa police, continue leading up to the event itself. These meetings help address any ongoing changes to the itinerary and serve to finalize operational plans for the visit.

Great care is also taken to ensure that members are provided with accurate and timely advance notice of special events. This information is provided to members through communiqués from the office of the Sergeant-at-Arms and covers matters including the time and date of upcoming visits, access to Centre Block and public galleries, pedestrian and vehicle access, shuttle bus service, and tours.

These messages aim to provide information that will facilitate members' access during special events, while providing advance notice.

Needless to say, given the great care we take in preparing for these kinds of situations, we are deeply disappointed that your committee is again seized with a matter of this nature. We fully expect that the committee will wish to pursue its inquiry with those of our partners better able to explain the chain of events that took place in this case.

We're now prepared to take your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Bosc.

We'll go to Mr. MacKenzie first, for seven minutes, please.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you to the panel for being here today. I guess we are in the same boat as you. We wish we weren't here today on this particular issue, but we are, and it's important that we look at it.

We dealt with this situation only a couple of years ago, and I know you're all intimately aware of this particular situation. Therefore, what would you say right now that we could look at to try to prevent this from occurring in the future? Is there something from both the member side and the security side that we could collectively work on so that these things would not come up again?

[Kevin Vickers, Sergeant-at-Arms, House of Commons]

Sir, I would think we're going to have to double our efforts with our partners, particularly with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, to ensure these things don't happen.

There are a number of avenues we're already looking at. You will recall back in the 2012 incident during that visit there were controlled pedestrian access points, and we resolved that issue by having a member of the House of Commons security go out on the site with the RCMP member to identify members of Parliament. We have done that on numerous occasions since 2012, in particular for large demonstrations.

One of the ways forward, or one of the things I've seen, is that there is an operational centre that looks after these visits at St. Joseph Boulevard, which is controlled by the RCMP. We have one of our House of Commons security constables embedded within that operational centre for these visits, but I think the next step we're going to have to take is to ask for a joint management that has the overall perspective of the entire visit and would have a superintendent of House of Commons security there with the superintendent of the RCMP. That's one of the ways forward I see which hopefully could resolve this issue.

The other issue is that we continually have to educate the RCMP on the whole issue of privilege. We do that at all our meetings and pre-meetings, but evidently the message is just not reaching the front-line troops that members of Parliament enjoy a privilege and that their access to the precinct is to be unfettered. We have to continue to try to solve that problem.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Do you know if someone has spoken with the individual officer or officers who may have been involved in this particular incident? Was there a question that they either didn't understand the privilege or didn't recognize the members?

[Kevin Vickers]

I believe all of the officers who were involved have been spoken to, not by the House of Commons, but with the RCMP. As well, in this particular case, the Ottawa city police motorcycle unit was involved in stopping green buses from coming up onto the Hill. I understand that everyone who was involved in the incident has been spoken to.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Is there an issue that they did not understand the privilege?

[Kevin Vickers]

Sir, honestly, I'm not in a position to answer that question. But I can tell you that from my review of the incident, from what I see, there seems to be an absence of knowledge out there that resulted in members of Parliament being stopped coming up onto the Hill.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay.

I guess, when I think about it, there are actually two issues. One of them is the members' right of privilege to be on the Hill. The second might be the identification of members.

I took it from the individual who brought this forward that his other issue was that he verbally identified himself as a member of Parliament and in his mind that didn't change anything. Whether or not there's a better way that the security people can identify members of Parliament.... We're talking about 308 members of Parliament, plus senators, right? It's pretty difficult for everybody to recognize every individual for their role here.

I'm wondering if there's a broader way we can identify the members and/or, in addition, the role that parliamentarians play and their rights to unfettered access.

[Kevin Vickers]

Well, I'm convinced, sir, that this incident wasn't about identification of members of Parliament. The member of Parliament in question clearly identified himself. There's no question that the members on the green buses.... I mean, it was evident that the people they were in contact with were members of Parliament.

The identification issue in this case is not whether or not the officers knew they were members of Parliament, or whether the member of Parliament in question was a member. The question is this lack of knowledge that they felt that the motorcade movement superseded the rights of the member, and members, to come up to the Hill.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

So our next step should be to talk directly to the people in charge of the folks on the ground, to ascertain the next step going forward with them.

[Kevin Vickers]

Yes, sir. Again, I just want to point out that I, as Sergeant-at-Arms, feel that I and my team have a responsibility to assist and to help the RCMP in this process. We did ask in the past, and have been informed in the past, that all RCMP employees who come to work on the Hill are taught and instructed on parliamentary privilege.

Perhaps it would be of benefit for us to be involved in that instruction as well, and perhaps members of the law clerk's office. Obviously we'll have to improve upon the education of our security partners outside.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

We'll move to Madame Latendresse, for seven minutes, please.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today. We have days when we feel a bit like we are in the movie Groundhog Day. Incidents occur, we look at the situations and try to find solutions, but things are not always simple.

You appeared here before to discuss a similar matter. But one of the major differences between the current situation and the one we dealt with last time, as my colleague has pointed out, is that there is no problem of identification here at all.

Back in the day, a number of us had just recently been elected. So there was an adjustment period, which is normal. Some guards did not recognize us. A suggested solution at the time was that members should have their identity cards with them when they came to Parliament Hill.

In this specific case, however, there is an major difference. The officer actually recognized the member. He told him that he did not deny the fact that he was a member of Parliament, but he still did not want to let him through, even though the bells were ringing for us to go to the House to vote.

Do you think there could be a more permanent solution that would remove the need for this committee to meet again in a couple of years to talk about the same problems?

The problems come up frequently. So we have to meet, but we do not seem to find a solution. You told us about the joint committee that could coordinate all these things. I am glad I found that out. That is probably why we have fewer incidents now.

Do you think there could be a more permanent solution to this problem?

[Marc Bosc]

Ms. Latendresse, I would say that the Sergeant-at-Arms and the Assistant Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms have been working hard for a very long time to ensure that our partners understand how important it is that parliamentarians have access to Parliament Hill.

That being said, the House administration has no control over the methods used by our partners who have a presence at the various access points on Parliament Hill. Those resources are not within our jurisdiction.

As the Sergeant-at-Arms indicated, if those people have not been fully trained to deal with the issues, there will be problems, of course. That is why we are redoubling our efforts to reach out to our partners in that committee and by other means in order to zero in on this aspect of the issue.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I would actually like to receive confirmation that the Commissioner of the RCMP will come to give testimony. It is very useful to have you here and you clearly play a very important role in terms of security, but the House of Commons Security Services are generally not responsible for this kind of problem. As you explained, this happens with external partners. I would therefore like to confirm that the RCMP official will in fact appear before us.

Do you think there is a way to train these people properly? The same thing happened the last time we had a problem. RCMP members are often not the ones working regularly on Parliament Hill, as you said earlier. When special events take place and the RCMP needs backup, I would imagine that the people asked to come are not necessarily assigned to Parliament Hill often.

Could the solution be to hold specific briefing sessions every time there is a similar event on Parliament Hill for the sake of those added to the forces?

[Marc Bosc]

The Sergeant-at-Arms and the Assistant Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms are doing their best to work on that with the partners. I would like to point out that our relations with our partners are great. We work very well together. We do our best to work well together at all the events. However, we are unable to tell you exactly what measures the RCMP takes to inform its members. You will have to ask them.

We know what we do and what our efforts are to address our constant fear that MPs might be prevented from having access to Parliament Hill. However, there is only so much we can say about it. We are not always aware.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I understand.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You have a minute and a half.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

That's good.

David, you can have the remaining time.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much for coming. I'll probably only get a chance to get started; I'll pick up in the next round.

I was a little disappointed that we didn't get the RCMP commissioner here. I know there was some concern about the physical ability to host everyone; at least that's what I was told. I would hope that not only are we going to have that meeting, but I had mentioned before that we should include the chief of the Ottawa police. There was, of course, the comment that it's not responsible for the precinct, but as you can see already from the Sergeant-at-Arms, we're dealing with motorcades, and I think, in fact, that was part of the problem this time.

I think we need not only the RCMP commissioner here but the chief, and we also should bring back our Sergeant-at-Arms, so that they are hearing each other and seeing each other. Then if there's a repeat, it's clearly understood that all the leadership was here and made commitments. If there is a further problem, then we can start to identify what that problem might be.

I used up most of my time. Maybe, Chair, you could just give some comments as to whether you think that meeting is going to happen and whether it can happen that way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

This committee suggested last time that we would start with our Sergeant-at-Arms and we would move on to the Commissioner of the RCMP. Certainly it's always up to the committee as to who our witnesses will be.

If that's the will of this committee after today's meeting, we'll make that happen next.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thanks. That's excellent.

I'm probably down to just moments, so I'll end there and pick up my questioning in the next round, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

All right, then, we'll shift over to Mr. Lamoureux, for seven minutes.