Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 21st, 2014

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So the command structure takes over and leaders at all levels are briefed downwards, and then finally it goes to the placement on the street.

[A/Commr Gilles Michaud]

Yes.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I think it's important to add that the amount of coordination that goes into each one of these events is significant, in the sense that our ops centre is activated. We'll have members of the House of Commons and Senate security forces sitting with us, having been briefed all the way up to the event. Then on the execution of the event, we have abilities to de-conflict and react, and everybody's in radio contact.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

You said there's an LO from each organization in the room.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

That's right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We'll go to Madam Latendresse, for four minutes, please.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here and for helping us to better understand what happened on September 25 and 26.

I would like to mention one thing. I think the problem was sufficiently well described by my colleague a bit earlier. Basically, it may have been more of a problem related to the events that were taking place on Parliament Hill and in Centre Block. It can become an issue when an event occurs at the same time as a vote, or when the opening of the House is delayed.

Even if there was only a two-minute interval, we can see in the video that it is 10:07. The Speaker of the House was supposed to be there early to commence House business, and he was unable to do so. So it is a broader issue, and we can't simply say that no one should bear 100% of the blame. If we think about what happened to Mr. Godin, the officer who stopped him did not think he was doing anything wrong, naturally. He had to ensure people's safety. No one here is trying to say that all of the blame should be placed on any one person's shoulders.

However, certain steps could be taken. There are several options. As we were saying earlier when we were speaking with Mr. Vickers, certain specific measures could be taken when these visits are planned, if they are to take place on a weekday, while the House is sitting, in order to avoid interfering with the votes.

Earlier, we talked about Elgin Street and the possibility of having the motorcades go through there. That could be one idea. Currently, we are in the building at 1 Wellington Street. If there were a vote called and we had to return to Centre Block and if something happened again, there could be an issue. We really need an overall vision of this problem, in order to better protect parliamentary privilege exercised in the course of our legislative duties, when events involving foreign dignitaries are planned.

Do you have any comments to make?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I agree with you completely.

I think we've already talked about the planning process. The decisions have to be taken at that level. First of all, we have to organize the arrival of the dignitaries, and secondly think about other ways of letting the members in. We have not done enough in that regard.

Do you have any comments to make, Deputy Commissioner?

[Deputy Commissioner Mike Cabana, Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you for your comments.

Yes indeed, it is not that there is a misunderstanding about the importance of parliamentary privilege as such, but it is, rather, a matter of coordination among the various organizations. Mr. Michaud and Mr. McDonell have already done a great deal of work, especially since those incidents.

We have all the ingredients to put other processes in place that will allow us to better coordinate everything so as to minimize such issues in the future.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Let's go back to Mr. Godin's case. Several members were waiting for quite a long time in the shuttle buses, and the driver told them that he did not think he could get through and that they should try to go up to the House on foot. Even if there was only a brief delay, it could have been problematic if they had not been able to make it to the House on time to vote.

And so we must find a solution to prevent a recurrence of this type of situation. I have been sitting on this committee for a number of years now, and it seems that these situations occur a little too regularly. We sit down, we say that we really have to find solutions, and then it happens again. I'm afraid that there might be an instance where a lot of members will be deprived of their right to vote because of this. We really have to find a solution to resolve this problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacKenzie, for four minutes, please.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, panel members, for being here today.

I think most Canadians watching this would question what a 70-second delay means when you look at all of the things taken into totality here. I respect Mr. Godin's position here that he was delayed in getting to the Hill, but there is also the issue of his safety.

There was also the issue of safety with the motorcade. I think most of us around here have been in foreign countries as part of a motorcade. I've often felt pretty fortunate not to have run over somebody the way those motorcades operate. I think the expertise and the professionalism that we see here stand out.

I think, with all due respect, that you do an excellent job, and from time to time there will be issues that develop, such as those Mr. Godin and the Speaker ran into.

I think as we work through these—and obviously you have—just the little thing about changing the gate will make a tremendous difference and, obviously, make the task at hand a whole lot simpler for the people who have to provide that security.

As we find these things, I think Canadians would watch this and say, “Well, didn't they do a pretty good job? Nobody got hurt. The motorcade got through. Mr. Godin did get to the vote on time”. The Speaker may have been a little late. I was looking at the times here, and I don't want to be critical of the Speaker, but he might have been a little late just getting to the first gate. So his delay was exasperating, and I'm not going to report that to the Speaker.

The other part I noticed in this was the construction going on at West Block. Mr. Godin in some circumstances would have been able to walk up the Hill on one side, but with the construction now that sidewalk is not available to go up. That's obviously part of the whole issue here. Mr. Godin could not have avoided the motorcade by going up the Hill on the West Block side.

I think there was the construction, and it's fair to say, as my colleague said, that the officer who had the opportunity to meet first-hand with the commissioner will probably be more respectful if that's a possibility. I'm not saying he was disrespectful, but certainly that goes through the moccasin telegraph. Everybody knows that the Hill and the parliamentarians are somewhat sacrosanct.

I really don't have any questions. I do respect Mr. Godin's position, but I'm satisfied that from time to time things just don't fall together the way everyone would hope they would. Certainly there are a variety of things here, including the construction on the Hill, that make traffic very difficult. But again, having that entrance now moved to Elgin Street eliminates the West Block construction.

The other part is when you look up here at Centre Block, you can't even go around the Centre Block and come out the other side. Maybe in normal circumstances a motorcade would go around behind and come out at Elgin Street, but now there is no opportunity for that. They'll have to come down and either circle or go down the Hill or go out Elgin Street.

I wish I knew the magic formula. I'm satisfied that the professionalism of all of the organizations here, including Mr. Vickers' people on the Hill, has gone a long ways to eliminating those issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. MacKenzie.

I have no speakers left on the list, but I'll take a couple of quick questions.

Mr. Godin, try to keep it to two minutes or less and we'll try to see if anybody else who hasn't asked a question would still like to.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Those are going to be very short.

First of all, I want to say that I am disappointed with the situation. Now we're dealing with an officer who says he was respectful and with a member of Parliament who is made to look as if he lied. I find this unfortunate, because you are never going to know the truth, finally.

I want to say for the record that as the member for Acadie—Bathurst for the past 17 years, I have enjoyed the respect of all my fellow citizens. I did not have a career in politics by telling lies and by inventing situations that did not happen. I want my comments to be recorded, because my reputation is at stake, which is worse than an issue crossing Bank Street. I find it very unfortunate that it has come to this.

I know my privileges. I know the privileges members have. I know how things are supposed to work. When I put my question in the House of Commons, all of my colleagues supported me regarding this situation. Today, I find it sad that there are two different versions of events, on the video and on what happened between the officer and me.

I have a lot of respect for the RCMP. I have a lot of respect for the municipal police and for our authorities. I did not get into politics because I had no respect for all of that. My work is to make legislation with my colleagues and to vote on legislation. And so I want my comments to be recorded. I find this part sad.

Moreover, as I said, I am challenging this. A conversation took place. Two evenings later, there were other votes in the House of Commons and as the Prime Minister was leaving, an RCMP officer with whom I was speaking told me that I should not go on. I could accept that because I did not want to get hit by a car.

That is why I am telling you sincerely that when I look at the video—and compare it to how things happened—it looks as though, while speaking to the officer, I wanted to leap in front of the car that was going by in front of me. And yet, I have no desire to commit suicide!

It is really unfortunate that things have taken this turn. That is why I am challenging the video. Something happened, otherwise we would not all be here today.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Mr. Paulson.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

May I make a comment, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You certainly may, sure. Go ahead.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I would just say, Mr. Godin, that no one in the RCMP, and certainly not me, is here to call into question your reputation or your integrity at all. The very fact that we are engaged in this discussion at all is something that I feel sorry about. I do not want your leaving here thinking that the RCMP has taken any swipe at your reputation. You say you have great respect for the police and RCMP, and I have great respect for you and parliamentarians. I don't want it left that you should go on thinking that there's any question of your integrity or your reputation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Mr. Christopherson, you have a quick two minutes, and we'll wrap it up.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

If I may, I have a follow-up.

In your comments, Sergeant-at-Arms Vickers, I think I heard you acknowledge that there could be a strengthening of the priority of access in the development of the master security plan.

Commissioner, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I saw you nodding. Your comments were suggesting that perhaps, had things been looked at differently, we could have, from a planning perspective, avoided the two paths interconnecting. That is my point. If the access for the members on that day had been different than the access the motorcade made, we would have avoided the whole thing. I see you nodding again, Commissioner, and I appreciate that. With the Sergeant-at-Arms agreeing to this, then it would seem to me that maybe we've come a long way here. Before it was, we need to impart the importance of access—and really it's a different approach now. This time, rather than just saying this is important as a stand-alone, if we looked at it as part of the planning, we could say, okay, the priority is the security of our guests. Alongside that we need to deal with the access of the members by asking if there is any point where these might clash or if there is any way we can mitigate the opportunities for that. As you said, Chief, from time to time things will happen. Officers need to step in, and we all respect that. If we plan it ahead of time, we can lessen the opportunity for a situation like that to arise because good planning had gone into it.

I, for one, Mr. Chair, am pleased that this kind of slightly different approach in prioritizing right from the planning perspective may go a long way to avoiding this, recognizing that in policing, things happen. We deal with those as best we can, but planning is the key.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson.

I'll call this to an end and thank our guests today.

It is like groundhog day. This committee has addressed this twice while I've been chair.

Monsieur Godin, you sat on the committee one of the last times we did this. At least I've heard a little bit of different news. It's not my intent simply to have this committee write another report and say that we looked at it. I'd really like to come to more of a solution.

We recognize from Mr. MacKenzie's statements today that construction was playing a role in why some of this happened. The twain would not have met if that hadn't been the case. I thank Mr. Christopherson and Mr. MacKenzie for those comments.

We'll suspend for a couple of minutes while we allow our guests to leave and thank them for being here.

We'll then go in camera and talk about how to write this report.

[Proceedings continue in camera]