Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 21st, 2014

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As has been talked about by Tom, I generally do appreciate the fine work, whether it's by RCMP or municipal law enforcement officers who provide services not only for our precinct but also to the population as a whole. Having said that, I also believe that all the gentlemen here understand the importance of privilege of access and why it is in fact justified and why it is that you're here today.

I was somewhat intrigued, Mr. Vickers, by your last answer on the green bus incident. I'd be interested in knowing, in particular from you, Mr. Paulson, if you and Mr. Vickers have had an opportunity discuss that. But before that, there was a fairly serious allegation, and I want to make sure that we're perfectly clear on this, that the video that we saw as members of Parliament just moments ago was in fact accurate, that it was not sped up in any fashion.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

It was not sped up in any fashion, no.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Okay.

You mentioned that you had talked to the RCMP officer in question. Can you give us some sort of context in which that RCMP officer would have said how the discussion went?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

He came to my office, we had a discussion, and I put what I understood Mr. Godin to have experienced to the officer. He assured me, without denying specifically that he had said “I don't care”, that he couldn't imagine that he said he didn't care and that he treated people with respect, but that it was a safety issue. I imparted to him the importance not only of privilege but also of the respectful engagement with members of the public, and particularly parliamentarians.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

So you're in the awkward position that he tells you that he didn't say that. Did he say specifically that he did not say that?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

He said he couldn't remember saying that.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Okay.

If you were that RCMP officer—and we're talking about that specific incident, then I want to go on to the green bus—what would you have done differently?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I certainly would have conducted myself respectfully with the member of Parliament. I think that the motorcycles, having started darting across.... You saw the motorcycles and I think, as Mr. Godin pointed out, there was a momentary lapse between the motorcycles and the arrival of the substantive motorcade. I think the motorcade had arrived. I would have been very respectful and explained why this wasn't possible, that it was only going to be for a moment, and I would apologize for the inconvenience.

It's a bit risky for me to substitute my decision-making for that officer. He assures me that he was not disrespectful. My judgement is that we need to reinforce with all of our members the need for understanding privilege. It's not lost on us, sir, the importance of this privilege and how it has to be defended. That has to be imparted to the officer. The respectful engagement with members of Parliament is absolute.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

In terms of the green bus incident, can you give us some insight into what took place with it? That's one question.

Just in case we do run out of time, the other thing I'm interested in is to what degree and how often we have representatives from the RCMP in discussion with Mr. Vickers or Mr. McDonell?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I'm going to pass your first question off to Chief Bordeleau, who has information on the green bus. I don't.

I can say quickly to your other question that, other than encountering Mr. Vickers from time to time at social events, it is primarily Deputy Cabana and Assistant Commissioner Michaud who would have the lion's share of engagement with Mr. Vickers and his staff.

[Chief Charles Bordeleau]

Mr. Chair, at 10:51 a.m., one of our motorcycle officers did stop a green bus. The purpose of that was to start the process of flushing out the street to ensure the safe arrival of the motorcade. That street the bus was on was flushed to prevent oncoming traffic from facing the motorcade. That was the first phase to flushing out the street, removing the oncoming traffic. The second phase was the vehicles and motorcycles pushing out traffic that was going in the same direction as the motorcade. That process started approximately 10 minutes before the arrival of the motorcade. That's what you see on a video, which I reviewed. You see the Ottawa Police Service officer stopping all vehicular traffic on that street where the green bus was. There were a couple of other vehicles behind it as well, preventing oncoming traffic. That happened at 10:51 a.m.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

So there are time protocols that are put into place and as far as you can tell that protocol was met?

[Chief Charles Bordeleau]

Absolutely. You can't flush out a street in a matter of two minutes. It takes a while to do it safely and securely. On the video you see the oncoming vehicle traffic stop. Then you see vehicle traffic that is flowing with the motorcade ahead of time. That eventually disappears, it gets flushed out. The last piece is pedestrians. You see some joggers and cyclists, and then you see the members walking across the street. That's the last phase to fully secure the perimeter to allow the free-flowing movement of the motorcade.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

To deal with that specific issue, it's more the changing of the time protocols than it is any fault of any particular officer wanting to tie up things.

[Chief Charles Bordeleau]

From a logistics perspective, I would suggest a 10-minute window is problematic, depending on how big the streets are and the perimeter. In that area, they allow themselves about 10 minutes to secure and close down the streets, because they have traffic on Wellington that has to be stopped, as well as other vehicles along Bank Street coming across directly. All those pieces have to fall into place, and we can't do it safely in one instant. It has to be phased in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

We're at four-minute rounds now, Mr. Opitz.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all of you for being here, because the accessibility that all Canadians have to the Hill and the safety with which they can access the Hill is remarkable in the world. I'd like to thank all of you for doing that. I know that's something Canadians enjoy. All of you on the job are making that possible.

I have a couple of things. I understand from a military perspective how you guys work together. I was at World Youth Day 2002 as an operations officer, coordinating among military, RCMP, metro police, OPP, and other police forces. Coordination was a massive undertaking. Some of the things we did there...and I've taken away from my military time are things like rules of engagement cards, soldier cards, little aides-mémoire that you can use. Perhaps posting, in a case where your officers are concerned.... You've counselled them now, although on the video the tone and intent is impossible to discern. I'm sure that's the first and last time he's going to want to talk to his commissioner in such a fashion. I'm pretty sure he's been illuminated as to what the issues are.

I would recommend that you look at creating some of these types of mnemonics, or in fact posting a parliamentary officer with the RCMP, because he does have the visual memory to understand who's a member of Parliament, as among the types of things you could put in place.

How do you do coordinate your SOPs? Perhaps I'll start with the Sergeant-at-Arms.

[Kevin Vickers]

Following Mr. Christopherson, we do have a whole series of advance meetings before each visit. For the House of Commons, in collaboration with our security partners, we do up what's called an ops order for every visit, which outlines step-by-step how the visit is to unfold.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

How do you deal with new officers on the Hill? How are they briefed when they arrive?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I'll hand it over to Assistant Commissioner Michaud.

[A/Commr Gilles Michaud]

All new police officers who are affected on Parliament Hill.... We have different types of police officers. We have those who are posted permanently on Parliament Hill. As soon as they come for their first day on the job, we have SOPs in place; parliamentary privilege is part of our SOPs. They need to read through them, and then they get exposed to the booklets so they can facilitate identification.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Are all the SOPs in alignment with all the different agencies: parliamentary, Ottawa police, RCMP?

[A/Commr Gilles Michaud]

I couldn't say if they are in sync. When we have events that we need to coordinate, they are definitely in sync. I'm talking about the ongoing SOPs for us, but I would imagine that these are discussed as well through the MSP office meetings. If there's any divergence, corrections would be brought at that level.

As for the other types of members, we have ones who are assigned for a shift, a couple of shifts, or a specific event. Before the beginning of their shifts, these members will be briefed accordingly, depending on the nature of the duties they have to accomplish. They won't necessarily go through all the SOPs, but they will be briefed on expectations during the event.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

When you do ops orders, those are done at a command level. How are they pushed down to the troops?

[A/Commr Gilles Michaud]

It's through the SOPs.