Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 18th, 2014

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you both for that.

Let me turn now for a moment to cost. I find it interesting that both your legislatures contracted or bought software to assist you.

Monsieur Arsenault, you mentioned the gestion des signataires.

Mr. Mercer, you said you found an off-the-shelf software program in the U.K., and you mentioned the cost of about $8,000 for that.

Monsieur Arsenault, how much did the gestion des signataires software cost your Assembly?

[François Arsenault]

When I was getting ready for this meeting, I talked to our IT people and asked them that very question. Unfortunately, I was unable to get an exact number. Because we launched our system in the process of completely overhauling our Web site, as I explained earlier, there was some overlap in the work involved. So it is hard to separate the tasks related to the e-petition initiative from those associated with the larger Web site project. We can say that it took 650 person-days to put the system in place over a period of 6 months. We had to devote 650 person-days to the e-petition component.

You should know that we did all the work. It was done internally, and we did not really use any outside consultants to put the system in place. But it is a matter of scale. Obviously, you have to keep in mind the fact that we were in the process of completely overhauling our Web site and information architecture, not just dealing with the e-petition component.

The maintenance issue may be of interest to you. In fact, almost no maintenance is required, given that the system practically runs itself. Of course, little glitches arise from time to time but not very many, mainly because the bulk of the software was developed internally.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

If I'm hearing you correctly, you would both suggest that perhaps we should look at purchasing some external software to assist us in the management of signatures, but the nuts and bolts of reconstruct on the architecture side should all be done internally. Would that be a fair comment? Certainly from the National Assembly, it sounds as if that's the approach you took.

I'm not sure, Mr. Mercer, if you had to hire any outside help when you implemented your system.

[Tim Mercer]

Mr. Chairman, no, we did not hire any outside help. We worked very closely with the vendors of the software in question. There's a difference between scope and scale. Obviously, the Northwest Territories is a very small jurisdiction in terms of population, but the complexity of the matters and the complexity of managing the system I think are the same regardless of scale. They were quite willing to adapt the system to meet our specific needs. I think we've all had experience with trying to customize existing software, and the customization was relatively painless in this case. I don't think it's necessarily a matter of scale in that case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

We'll go to Madame Latendresse, for seven minutes, please.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by making sure I understood you correctly Mr. Arsenault. In response to Mr. Lukiwski's question, you said that you did all the work internally. You did not hire any outside people or use existing software. Is that correct?

[François Arsenault]

Basically, the bulk of the work was done internally. It's hard to give you an answer because it isn't black and white. We did use consultants for the Web site overhaul, so that's why things are a bit blurry.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I see.

I have a question about something you said at the beginning of your presentation. It is a question the committee had as well.

You said that an electronic petition on the same subject or issue as another petition that is already posted could not be initiated. How do you decide when the subject is too similar? How different must the second petition be in order to be accepted?

[François Arsenault]

Thank you for your question. It is certainly an interesting one.

It is a practical decision that falls under the clerk's authority and depends on the nature of the petitions and people reviewing them.

They carefully examine the text of the two petitions. If the subject of the second petition is too similar to the first, they will not deem the second petition non-compliant; instead, they will decide that it cannot be posted immediately. The second petition cannot be posted until the period during which the first petition is posted is over. National Assembly staff, under the president's, or speaker's, authority, carefully analyze and compare the two petitions. Ultimately, the decision falls to the president should a question arise.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

So it is really dealt with on a case-by-case basis. In each case, you have to determine whether the petitions are sufficiently different.

[François Arsenault]

Precisely. When a new petition is received, the person in charge has to review it in light of those already posted on the Web site. The person flags any potential problems, and then a decision is made.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Very good.

Now I have a good understanding of what happens at the National Assembly once a petition is tabled, but I also have some questions for Mr. Mercer.

What happens once a petition is deemed acceptable and tabled in the legislative assembly? How does the process work?

[Tim Mercer]

Thank you for the question.

I will try to answer in French.

The process is almost identical to that used in other parts of the country. Once a petition has been submitted, an MLA—one will suffice—must table it in the legislative assembly. The government then has 60 days to respond to the petition. An MLA can also propose a motion to immediately debate the petition in committee or the legislative assembly. Every member of the legislative assembly has to agree, however.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

If I understand correctly, the motion, once introduced, must receive unanimous consent. If it does, it can be debated in committee or the legislative assembly. Is that right?

[Tim Mercer]

Actually, unanimous consent is not required, just the support of the majority.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Very well.

My next question is for Mr. Wudrick.

Could you please explain how your organization uses e-petitions to promote citizen engagement?

[Aaron Wudrick]

Thank you for the question.

We do a number of initiatives mainly through our website and we also have people in the field. We use a hybrid system. We have the petition placed on the website and then we also have our field agents. When they are soliciting for donations and such, they are also presenting these petitions to people.

We've long been a user of e-petitions. In several cases, we got some that went into the hundreds of thousands, I believe. I'd have to check on that for you.

So yes, not only are we advocating that Parliament use them, but we use them ourselves.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Have you encountered any problems, such as those involving signature authenticity? Would you say your system is equipped to verify signatures?

[Aaron Wudrick]

Yes, we do our best. I think it's probably akin to any other organization that's collecting signatures: it's difficult to verify everything. I think that's been alluded to by many of the other people who've presented. I think we have to bear in mind when we're talking about e-petitions that we don't make the standard absurdly high, when we consider that right now when we use regular petitions, there's only a certain level of scrutiny.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Absolutely.

Do I still have some time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You have two minutes.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I want to come back to Mr. Mercer.

I found your comments very interesting, particularly what you said about the Northwest Territories being so vast and its population being so spread out. In other words, it is sparsely populated.

In light of our federal system, which covers the entire country, do you not think it is very important to put this system in place? If a petition is submitted in Nova Scotia, it is practically impossible to ensure that someone in the Northwest Territories will receive a paper copy. An e-petition system would, however, allow us to cover the entire country. People could sign petitions coast to coast to coast.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Tim Mercer]

I completely agree.

In this day and age of electronic communications, petitions can be circulated more easily right across the country. It is easier for people in the Northwest Territories, who live in very remote communities, to access them online.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

My last question is for Mr. Arsenault. Having studied computational linguistics at Université Laval, I have a bit of a personal interest in this.

I was wondering about the software you use to analyze the names of people who sign petitions.

Do you have a sense of how the software detects a name that appears suspicious?

[François Arsenault]

I'm no IT expert, but I had a look at the database of names just last week to refresh my memory before meeting with the committee. The database was provided to the National Assembly. I'm not certain whether the names are from the phone book or other such source. I could get back to the committee with more information on that.

The software scans the names on the petition and flags those that are not in the database. It allows us to view only those names that might be problematic. Usually, they aren't, so the person responsible simply unflags them. In short, the software pulls up too many names, as opposed to not enough.