Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 21st, 2013

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay, sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I know, it was just about to get good.

We'll go to Mr. Bellavance, for four minutes, please.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Legault, for your input.

I had wanted the committee to hear from the Privacy Commissioner, and she sent us a brief. Nothing you are saying contradicts what the commissioner said about personal information and privacy. But I would like to hear your thoughts on a point Mr. Lamoureux brought up.

How much information should we disclose? It's important for us, but there are two sides to disclosure. To my mind, it makes perfect sense for my constituents, or the general population, to know how my budget is being spent, because, at the end of the day, it's their money. That's no problem. Like it or not, however, other people are sometimes involved.

For instance, if I sign a service contract with the community television people in my riding, what problem could that cause for them, in terms of other media, since they are also involved? Kevin mentioned taking someone to lunch. Obviously, someone who wants to keep the discussion completely confidential will come to my office, where we can close the door. And the discussion will remain confidential. But even in that case, I have to tell you that my office is located right across from a local newspaper, and the reporters have called me up before to ask why so-and-so came to see me. In those situations, we don't give them an answer.

Basically, if we go out to eat with someone, do we have to disclose who the person is and what the meeting was for? We also want to know whether certain pieces of information need to be disclosed when it comes to the contracts for our employees.

Of course, there are guidelines. But I would like you to elaborate on what we need to do to prevent certain pieces of information from getting out and being made public, information that could harm people who are not members of Parliament.

[Suzanne Legault]

That's what makes the matter so complex. The legal frameworks that were created, such as the Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act, are comprehensive. The institutions subject to those acts do what they have to do, whether it involves contracts, discussions or documentation. The safeguards in those legislative schemes are there precisely to protect that information when access to information requests are made.

Some information is sensitive from a business standpoint, some elements are protected under the privileges granted to your client, and some elements have to be protected because they constitute confidential information. If the act applied to the House and Parliament, it would include safeguards for parliamentary privilege. That's what makes it so difficult to answer your question. Is document A containing information B subject to proactive disclosure? The reality is the answer is very complex.

That is why figuring out the level of specificity that applies in the case of proactive disclosure is complicated, with receipts, for instance. It would be very tough to do without following a procedure to ensure the information that should be protected is protected.

Whether it's realistic to subject administration to that type of disclosure is for the committee to examine and decide. What you're really doing is trying to invent a totally new system, beyond the existing legal frameworks, in terms of your own rules. And if you want to do so when it comes to the existing rules and the Board of Internal Economy bylaws, you are going to have to develop a framework that covers all those questions. That's the complex task you will have to undertake if you approach things that way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Julian, you are splitting your time, I take it.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to reiterate by following up on Mr. Christopherson's comments about what we're actually mandated to do, because I sense from the other side—and we've seen this in the House with the Prime Minister refusing to answer questions about the Senate scandals—there's a move away from what is actually written.

Mr. Chair, I know people in places like Regina and Burnaby and other places across the country will be wondering what exactly happened here. I want to make sure that we have on the record the motion itself, which is to conduct open and public hearings with a view to replace the Board of Internal Economy with an independent oversight body. It follows that we will propose modifications to the Parliament of Canada Act and any other acts as deemed necessary, propose any necessary modifications to the administrative policy and practices of the House of Commons, and report its findings to the House no later than December 2 in order to have any proposed changes to expense disclosure and reporting in place for the beginning of the next fiscal year.

It's very clear, Mr. Chair. What we are asked to do is to replace the secretive internal self-policing Board of Internal Economy, and folks in Regina and North Vancouver Island and Burnaby and Newfoundland are expecting us to do that. With that, I'll turn my time over to Madam Groguhé.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

He has taken some of your time.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Legault, for your comments.

Clearly, the issue that concerns us above all is rectifying the lack of transparency and accountability. We firmly believe in the need to entrust that accountability function to an independent agency, ideally.

You talked mainly about the Access to Information Act, which you believe should be amended in order to ensure that transparency and accountability.

Aside from the United Kingdom, which you already mentioned in your opening remarks, could you give us some examples of other countries with access to information laws that are working optimally?

[Suzanne Legault]

As far as parliamentary transparency and accountability are concerned, the government with the most advanced legislation, the Parliament that is most subject to access to information legislation, is Great Britain's. IPSA is subject to access to information. The British Parliament created an independent agency, and all of it is covered by the legislation.

In terms of general legislation, as you know, I am in the process of examining that whole issue. Soon, I hope to establish what the Canadian model will look like, a model I hope will be the best in the world. Right now, I don't believe a single international model exists. Different models each have elements that are useful, but I firmly believe we can create our own Canadian model and that it can be the best out there.

Be that as it may, I would say that Great Britain currently holds the top spot when it comes to the transparency of Parliament and its institutions.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Very well.

With respect to—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You have 30 seconds; question and answer.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

With respect to proactive disclosure, you say it's not enough and has its limitations.

Do you think that, like IPSA, an independent agency could significantly improve the state of disclosure, including, of course, as it relates to MPs?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to Mr. Opitz for four minutes.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do need to correct something that the members opposite have said. “With a view to” often means to consider as an option. This is a study to reflect on the potential need to replace or make changes to, and that means “with a view to”. It doesn't categorically mean “this will happen”. You can't situate the estimate, meaning “predetermine an outcome”, before we arrive at that.

Additionally, my friends opposite are not transparent. As my friend from the Liberal Party pointed out, they refuse to be transparent, and in fact, Mr. Julian only has the most basic of first-year expenses from this Parliament on his website. To me, this doesn't appear particularly transparent, open, or accountable for anybody who potentially wants to lead this country. We'd end up going from having what we built as the greatest economy in the G-7 to having the NDP GPS drive us off the cliff. That's something I find very disturbing.

Madam, I'm having some concerns because I think what you're proposing, in many respects, is layers and layers of additional, burdensome administration. There is a lot going on in the House already. There is a lot of accountability. We are the government that put in the Federal Accountability Act in the first place to be able to accommodate this. Our side and the Liberal Party have both agreed to proactively disclose, and you have to give credit to parliamentarians for willingly wanting to disclose the details of our expenses.

In fact, when you do look at something to replace or to change, Mr. Sills from IPSA said himself that you really have to determine if there's a problem big enough to prompt a change. That is something we're also determining, and I'm not sure I see a problem big enough to do that.

Having said that, we've also had two former Speakers and the Clerk here and all said that the Board of Internal Economy is working well and has the appropriate level of disclosure and that things are announced and produced in the House for disclosure to the public, and all of these experts, these former Speakers, all of these people who have spent decades doing this and working intimately with the Board of Internal Economy have said this to us over the last couple of weeks.

Why are they wrong and you right?

[Suzanne Legault]

Mr. Chairman, if parliamentarians consider that they are providing enough transparency and accountability to Canadians, then great. I think it's for parliamentarians to decide and it's for Canadians to decide.

People who are testifying to the effect that the Board of Internal Economy functions well are people who are members of the Board of Internal Economy. The Board of Internal Economy functions in secret, as per the Parliament of Canada Act.

So you're right; they're experts—they are part of it. I really can't comment on that. My comment is that in 2013—in an era of open government, open information, and open data—we should submit to some body that administers millions of taxpayers' dollars and they should be subject to the Access of Information Act. The layer of bureaucracy that is required to do that is to have an access to information officer and analysts who analyze requests from Canadians. My office already exists.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Opitz.

Madame Legault, Madame Bélanger, thank you for coming and joining us today. I think we'll call it at this point, because we can't get another round in.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

What? We have ten minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Julian. When you're made chair, you can make these decisions. I'm growing a little tired of your questioning things I do.

Thank you very much for coming today and having fun with us.

We will suspend for a minute while we bring in our other witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I call us back into session.

We have a new panel of guests here, but they're an old panel.

Madam O'Brien and Mr. Watters, thank you for coming back. We had some questions left from the last time you were here and have some new ones in the interim. We will take an opening statement from you, as short as you can make it, and we will try to get through a full round.

Committee, I'll pre-warn you that we're going to try to get to some committee business at the end for some direction on the report. We'd like to end this session a little bit before the top of the hour.

Madam O'Brien.

[Audrey O'Brien, Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons]

Good morning, Mr. Chairman, honorables députés.

I am pleased to be here with Mark Watters as we return for what I believe will be the final session of hearing witnesses in your study on the Board of Internal Economy. I have followed your hearings with interest.

I found the comments and suggestions made by those who have appeared before the committee very informative. I won't give an opening statement, but I would like to make a few comments that, in my view, will help clarify certain situations that seem to be mired in confusion.

In the first instance, let me simply say that with regard to the salaries and pensions of MPs, the Board of Internal Economy has nothing whatsoever to do with that. The Parliament of Canada sets the annual basic remuneration for members and the additional remuneration for certain office holders. It's the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act that sets pensions. So that's not in our remit.

Secondly, because this too seems to be a source of some confusion, the board has an equal representation of government and opposition members. It's chaired by the Speaker, who's elected by secret ballot by all members. It operates on the basis of consensus.

I've left with the clerk, and I think she has distributed to you, a report on the statistics on the views per page of the information on our website. That was a question I'd had. I have to warn you that these numbers are maybe a bit disappointing. Certainly they're far from overwhelming.

I'm sorry to say that I think it's the lack of direct experience with what is already posted that may lead people to the conclusion that there isn't very much information available or that they don't have sufficient information. Those kinds of comments I think tend to fuel mistrust of the Board of Internal Economy, mistrust of us as the House administration, and by extension, of course, mistrust of you yourselves, as MPs. On the contrary, I believe still, and I think the facts bear us out, that every dollar is accounted for and audited. I'd suggest that a great deal of information is already available. Now, more can be made available, and more is already in the works, but I certainly would urge people to become familiar with what is already on the website.

Another little point that Mr. Taylor-Vaisey from last night made was that it was not the entertainment value of the Board of Internal Economy that journalists were after, but rather the content.

I'm sorry if my facetiousness might have led to some confusion, but when I was talking about the “ordinariness” of the discussion, I was trying to dispel the idea that the Board of Internal Economy was a Star Chamber. I mean, I've always thought of the Star Chamber as rather intriguing, and wonderful. But because the board is constantly described as the “highly secretive” Board of Internal Economy, it tends to get a little atmosphere of Star Chamber about it when, to use a homely example, I think it more likely resembles a condominium board of directors, that sort of thing. That's just to set the record straight.

Finally, I was particularly interested, of course, as we all were, in the testimony of the Auditor General. As members know, the Auditor General's office conducted a performance audit of the House of Commons. The AG came in at the invitation of the board. In June 2010 that invitation was given, and the report was tabled in June 2012. It's a process that took almost two years—two years less a bit if we take it that the first summer was a bit of a lull.

That required us as the administration to devote many resources, in terms of time and people, to working with the Auditor General, which we were happy to do. The OAG made eight recommendations in the report, and the administration agreed with all of them. We've completed mitigating action on five of those, and the three others are well in progress.

I have to say, just as a small point of clarification, that not one of those recommendations had anything to do with the systems or procedures in place concerning the verification of members' entitlements, allowances, and services. I think that's an important point to realize.

That's it, Mr. Chairman. With my colleague Mark, I will be happy to answer questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Super. Thank you.

Let's get to questions.

Mr. Lukiwski, seven minutes, please.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have one more point about clarification, if I may, Madam O'Brien.

In the spirit of revisionist history that I keep referring to, my friend Mr. Julian has stated, on a number of occasions now, that there's a movement toward voting as opposed to consensus at the Board of Internal Economy. We've heard that claim refuted by both former speakers.

You yourself spoke of that consensus when you first appeared before us, but now, since we are on television and Mr. Julian seems concerned with the people who are watching, so that they get the right information, could you please remind the committee of how the board traditionally works in terms of reaching decisions? Is it through consensus primarily, or is there a movement toward voting and having a decision based on that?

[Audrey O'Brien]

Mr. Chairman, through you to Mr. Lukiwski, when I testified, appearing at the first meeting of the committee, I said that the board operated by consensus. It's my belief that this is an accurate description of how the board operates.

I did say that there had been one vote in my almost nine years' experience as secretary to the board. I believe last night Speaker Milliken referred to one or two instances where there had been votes, some of which predated my time as secretary. Again, those are by far the exceptions.

In terms of consensus, the way the discussions work, I believe as former Speaker Fraser explained it, very often the items that come up can be dealt with quite quickly, and there's agreement reached very quickly. In some cases, the issue is a bit more contentious, and it may take one, two, or possibly three meetings for people to come to a meeting of the minds. That's really the way we operate. I think it's safe to say that the people on the board would regard something that came to a vote as a failure of our usual processes.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you for that clarification.

I want to now, with the time we have left, delve a little deeper into your comments about the Auditor General's audit of the Board of Internal Economy. You said there were eight outstanding recommendations, which you all agreed upon, five of them mitigated, three still outstanding, I assume.

More on a, say, overarching view of things, in the report was there any suggestion either through direct recommendations or inference that the board was not fulfilling its duty and perhaps would be better served by having a replacement, independent, outside agency conducting the affairs that now are conducted by the Board of Internal Economy? I ask this because I can only assume that part of the audit was to examine your overall performance, and normally when audits are completed there are notes from the auditor.

So was there any indication, in your estimation, that the Auditor General was unhappy to the point where the BOIE should in fact be considered for replacement?

[Audrey O'Brien]

In fairness, Mr. Lukiwski, I don't think an examination of the role of the board was part of the mandate of the Auditor General. The Auditor General was coming in to see whether or not the administration adequately supported the Board of Internal Economy and executed its directives.

I can quote from the report:

The House of Commons Administration has the necessary policies in place to deliver services and advice to support Members of Parliament. It has appropriate policies and control systems in place to oversee expenditures and ensure that they conform with the by-laws, policies, and directives of the Board of Internal Economy.