Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Sept. 25th, 2018

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

My last set of questions is about social media and ads being purchased by third parties or political parties. Obviously, social media has a great influence right now. Do you believe it should be forced to identify who purchased the ads? It's like someone taking out an ad in The Globe and Mail about an issue in the election.

[Stéphane Perrault]

I'll expand a bit on that, if I may. The whole notion of fairness, which is so critical to our electoral process, has moved away from a largely financial perspective of a level playing field to a perspective of being concerned about the ethics of behaviour, especially with the use of social media.

I think we need to look at the notion of electoral fairness in a broader way, and that needs to include greater transparency on how data is used on social media and who purchases it.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Some things, such as ads or misinformation, get propagated even down to the level of algorithms, because we know that those algorithms can be manipulated to bring forward neo-Nazi propaganda, as we saw in the U.S. We saw disinformation about the last campaign.

[Stéphane Perrault]

Yes, I'm not an expert on the algorithms.

I do note that the bill does have some measure in terms of disinformation. It's not that it does not have any measures, but I do think it could go further.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Now we'll go on to Mr. Graham.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll echo Ms. May's comment and congratulate you for no longer being acting CEO.

On Sunday, I had the opportunity to vote in the advanced polls in the Quebec election. I went there with my wife and my daughter, who's four years old. There was a whole polling booth for the children where they had to vote on issues, even if they couldn't read, and then they gave them a tattoo saying, “I voted!” My daughter can't read yet, but she still wears it proudly. We can't wash it off. She won't let us.

My question is, within the law and within the act, what powers do you have to educate, especially minors, in that way? Could we, federally, do that kind of thing?

[Stéphane Perrault]

Yes, we could. I think there are rules around who gets to attend the polls, but I think we've been flexible in those rules for children in the past. We do allow toddlers at the polls.

I do find that exercise by the DGEQ very interesting. I'm looking at it carefully. We will not roll that out for the next election, but it's a nice way of bringing children in contact with the electoral process.

We currently have a full mandate to educate those under 18. We are using that mandate. Last week I was in Halifax, in Dartmouth, and launched our new civic education tools for teachers to use with teenagers in Canada.

So, we do have a mandate in that regard, and we think that's an important part of our mandate.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Okay.

You mentioned that there could be up to 15 months with no by-election taking place. Just for my own clarity, what are the mechanics of that? There are nine months when you don't have to have a by-election. What are the other six months?

[Stéphane Perrault]

The Parliament of Canada Act says that a by-election has to be called between 11 days after the CEO receives the warrant from the Speaker and 180 days. That's the outer limit, the six-month period. Then it has to be called. That's the current rule.

What that causes, as you know, is late vacancies triggering mandatory by-elections very late in the cycle. The bill contemplates not to have by-elections in the nine months that precede a fixed-date election. However, as drafted, it means that potentially a vacancy could occur less than six months—six months minus a day—before that nine-month period, and then be carried into the nine-month zone of no by-election.

That was not our intent. I don't think it was this committee's intent. The intent was that if there was a vacancy in the nine months, then a by-election would not be called. We wait for the fixed-date election—not nine months plus six. Everybody was on the same page in terms of the intent, but the drafting doesn't get us there.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I understand your point. Thank you for that.

I have more of a philosophical question. I'm not sure what the answer would be, but I'll leave it to you.

Is the structure of Elections Canada and the Elections Act strong enough to survive a partisan appointment to your job?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I'm sorry, a partisan appointment to...?

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

If your successor is a partisan appointment for some reason or other, are the structures strong enough to survive that?

[Stéphane Perrault]

The premise of that question is one that I just don't accept. I do think Parliament has in the past a long tradition, and traditions are very strong.

But let's accept it just for the sake of argument. What I can tell you is that there's a very strong culture at Elections Canada of non-partisanship and strict rules about activities that Elections Canada staff and field staff can and cannot do. That's embedded in the agency's DNA, so to speak.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I appreciate that.

One of the most important changes coming in this bill is vouching. We're going to bring back vouching, a little better than it was under Bill C-23, and restore the use of the voter information card.

How long will it take you to set those up to make sure they're in place? Are those things that can be done fairly quickly, or are they in danger if there's a delay?

[Stéphane Perrault]

This is largely a matter of training, of having the proper manuals in place and making adjustments to the format of the voter information card. All of that can be done, and the work on that has been prepared.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Okay, thank you.

I'm done.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Oh, great.

Indeed, I forgot that last time, but congratulations on the new position, sir. It's well deserved. Congratulations to you all.

I want to go back to the public education aspect of this new bill, because it seems to me that we're returning to what was before Bill C-23, several years ago. I forget the actual date.

Nevertheless, in it you talk about public education. Proposed subsection 18(1), the new amendment to the Canada Elections Act, says that the CEO's outreach activities may target groups of electors that are “most likely to experience difficulties in exercising their democratic rights.”

Can you give us more detail about that and explain it to us? Is this overly prescriptive, or does it build in the flexibility you need?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I think it is flexible.

It's our role to identify voters who face challenges, and we know who these are. These are young Canadians, Canadians with disabilities and new Canadians. We need to focus our attention there.

There are two angles to this. One is focusing our attention to make sure that these groups have the right information about how to exercise their right to vote, how to register, when to vote and so forth.

The civic education question is a much broader question. It used to be a broad mandate. It was restricted in 2014 to pre-18-year-olds, basically to non-voters.

The bill proposes to remove that barrier so we don't have to worry about what age group we're dealing with when we're talking about the importance of democracy and of voting. We can have products and activities that deal with that, including, for example, groups of students that may have 18-year-olds. We don't have to cut back on our activities because it may hit some older population.

However, that's different from the voter information campaign, which is really the factual approach to understanding the mechanics of voting.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Does this fall in line with the recommendation labelled as A5 from your CEO report following the 42nd general election? It noted, “While civic education for youth is obviously important”—which was contained within Bill C-23 at the tail end of deliberations—“it is not less important for electors who lack the basic knowledge about democracy.”

[Stéphane Perrault]

Yes.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Now, who is our target audience?

[Stéphane Perrault]

It can include, for example, new Canadians. There's a broader audience than just youth, so that's the point of this amendment. It was made on the recommendation of the former chief electoral officer, and we're happy to see that in the legislation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go to Mrs. Kusie.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Perrault, thank you for being here today.

This is only my third week on the file, so this is all very new for me. I'm still learning about the bill.

After attending a meeting with the minister yesterday, I still have a few questions regarding two parts of the bill.

The first question is in regard to Canadians abroad. Can you please elaborate on the current process that Canadians abroad must use to vote in Canadian elections?

Of course, this piece is very important for us as part of the legitimacy of the electorate of Canada. I would like to know specifically what Canadians are required to do when they would like to cast a vote in an election at present.