Evidence of meeting #130 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.
A video is available from Parliament.
Nominee for the position of Debates Commisioner, As an Individual
Yes, I think one could spin out probably three or four novels from that.
Conservative
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Okay.
Drawing on your experience of moderating past debates in 1979, 1984 and the provincial debates, I'm curious about how you will use that experience when it comes to establishing the mechanics and logistics from the staffing side of things. For example, the role of the moderator is probably one of the most difficult, as you would know. How would you go about establishing that type of position or other positions similar to that?
Nominee for the position of Debates Commisioner, As an Individual
I'd say three or four things.
One is that things have changed a lot since 1979, 1984 and 1987, when I was last actively involved.
Two, I'll be very interested in the request for proposals process to see how broad, imaginative, inclusive and wise they are in meeting what you and I would regard as high standards of journalistic integrity...but interest in breadth and coverage. Through the advisory board, and then through reaching out to other people who've thought about this a lot, we'll try to get their views and try to be sure they're reflected and realize whatever decisions are made in general terms of the format, the themes, the degree of participation that'll be for that particular instance. You probably know when you do it the next time, you'll do it somewhat differently.
In the report we will file with you within five months of the conclusion of the October debates, I hope we'll cover some of those possibilities of what we've discovered and what we know that we don't know and yet remain to be discovered.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Thank you, Chair.
It's an honour to have you here today.
As you referenced in your speech at the beginning a little of the experience you've had moderating the federal and Ontario provincial debates, I was wondering if you could delve into that a little more and talk about what experience you gained through that process. What were the difficulties and challenges you foresaw in those debates? How do you think debates have evolved since that time? What do you think those challenges may be going forward?
Nominee for the position of Debates Commisioner, As an Individual
One very specific one was as a moderator. I used to do a lot of labour arbitration and conciliation and served as a commissioner of the Ontario Securities Commission. You're always trying to be extremely balanced, measured and follow a fairly clear set of rules with no deviation. Of course, the broadcasters wanted a free-for-all. If they could get a shouting match and a real tangle, that would be great.
That was a very interesting tension, and I had a video screen on my desk where I was getting instructions from the people who were managing the debate in the rooms beyond, and I had to ignore them because their interests were...they would say as lively as possible, and I would say as disorderly as possible. That's a very interesting tension, and you see various formats where I'd find it unattractive when people are shouting across at one another and would try to avoid that, and other people would find that interesting. That's a very specific comment.
You have to adjust with the times. You have to realize that we use media in a very different way from how we did back in 1979 and 1984, but you take advice from a range of people on what makes for a really informative debate, one that engages the public interest, one that permits the parties' policies to emerge with a degree of clarity, and one can make judgments about the leadership characteristics of the different people who appear in those debates. You try to get into that as far as you can, and as far away as possible from very superficial, emotional reactions that occur from place to place.
I worry an awful lot about what happens with the debates. Do they mean anything to Canadians? How do we get at truth at a time when what are verifiable facts and what are ideological ideas get bandied about a little. Study very carefully how you use the debates as just one part of a large process of first, informing the public broadly, but second, engaging the public broadly, and third, engaging the young. I spent my whole life in universities. I think I did because I find young people so interesting. I think that's a great challenge for us as Canadians. How do we engage young people in saying this is important, and they want to participate in it?
Those are rambling comments.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
No, I think that was quite insightful, and I look forward to seeing, if appointed, what you do with the role. I know my colleague Mr. Simms gave up his time graciously to Ms. May, so I want to allow him to ask any questions he may have.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Thank you.
Just very quickly, sir, we've talked a lot about the—
Nominee for the position of Debates Commisioner, As an Individual
That's only $5 for the “sir”.
Nominee for the position of Debates Commisioner, As an Individual
It's only $5 for the “sir”. It's $10 or more for the “excellency”.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
I'm well aware. I have your money right here, sir. You're good for charity, I'll tell you that.
Nominee for the position of Debates Commisioner, As an Individual
It's the Scottish in me.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Just quickly, we talked a lot about the platforms we use, the different demographics that we want to reach out to, but this does go to your qualifications.
Some time ago we talked about communicating with the north from a language perspective, for all the indigenous people and the different types of languages they speak. In your experiences in the past travelling throughout the north, do you have a good idea about how we can engage more people in Canada's north or indigenous communities to be involved in debates?
Nominee for the position of Debates Commisioner, As an Individual
First, we have to work at it and we have to realize we're a country from coast to coast to coast.
Second, I was so struck in the first year of my time in office—in the first year, you visit the 13 different capitals of the country. We were in Yellowknife, and in the legislative assembly there they have 12 official languages. People say, “Twelve official languages—how on earth can you make a country like that work?” It does work. It's Canada. It works very much.
Third, at one of the Governor General's innovation awards last year—this will be its fourth year—there was a marvellous professor at the University of Montreal who had taken some of the less-known indigenous languages, particularly in the north, because of the very small number of people, and by recording them and then using very sophisticated software, was able to develop the vocabulary, the grammar, and actually put it into a teachable form. It's fascinating that this innovation has occurred.
Finally, this is a very personal thing, but it's how we reach the north. The Rideau Hall Foundation, which I chair and which we set up in 2012 to be able to amplify the outreach of the Office of the Governor General, administers the Arctic Inspiration Prize. That's $60 million by two immigrants to Canada who have left their life savings to produce $3 million or $3.5 million a year to promote projects in the north, by the northerners for northerners. We've had four years of it now, and it's one $1 million prize, two $500,000 prizes, and then, typically, seven or eight prizes of $100,000 or less, usually led by young people who are still in the early stages.... Each year at least one of those, maybe two, would have to do with languages and culture. Those are important things in developing a much greater sense of the richness of the languages in our north and preserving them and making them used.
Liberal
Calgary Midnapore, CPC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Scott, thank you very much for clarifying that the reference to “excellency” is still retained after they leave the office. I wasn't sure, so I appreciate that.
I would like to talk to you a bit, please, Mr. Johnston, in regard to the recruitment process. I would be interested to know who contacted you in regard to the position, if you were informed that there was a short list, and who else might have been on that short list. How was the mandate presented to you in terms of the amount of latitude that you would have to carry it out?
Nominee for the position of Debates Commisioner, As an Individual
You have three questions there.
I had a telephone conversation with the Prime Minister's Office and then had two conversations with Minister Gould. That is point one.
Point two, somewhere in that process I saw the draft mandate as written and it looked to me to be clear. I was very appreciative of that and also very appreciative of the report of your committee, which I thought was a first-class piece of work, plus the testimonies behind that, and then the sondage or the consultation effort that was done by the Institute for Research on Public Policy.
I've been involved in a number of public inquiries and commissions—25 or so over 40 or 50 years. What was particularly interesting and attractive to me is how far down the road you had gone to refine the questions and prepare a mandate. As my friend David Christopherson indicates, of course, there is controversy about that, but if you look at that particular controversy, it's very comforting to be considered for this position—it's “if”, as I'm not named and I'm simply a nominee at this stage—and to know that you have a fairly refined set of activities. You know what you have to do. You also know what it is that you have to make some judgments on and how you go about that. For lawyers, who are always looking for a degree of certainty, that's very comforting.
With respect to the third question, which had to do with whether I was aware of other folks, no, there was no discussion of that. I was asked if I would do it, and my answer was that I've spent my whole life in public life and I've always said yes to those questions, save for when I don't have the skill set or don't have the time. On a few occasions in my past, I've said that I really don't have the skill set—and there's often been an argument about that—or I've said that I don't have the time as I'm a general manager of a university, which is a full-time job. How much time can you carve out? If you can carve it out, you do it, but if you say that you can't do the job properly, then you don't.
That was my response. I don't know what other things were considered.
I'm sorry for the length of that.
Calgary Midnapore, CPC
No, not at all. I think the length is required. Thank you.
Certainly, while I believe that everyone around the table has no doubt that you are an incredible candidate, Canadians certainly have a right to know about the process that brought you here today. I appreciate the clarification on that, Your Excellency.
I know, certainly, that you're no stranger to this. I think it's very interesting that so many around the table point to our previous leaders as having had their own interests served within the debate process, when clearly they're here today advocating for their own interests. I would just like to raise that point.
My final question would be with regard to the budget. It has been noted that there is $5.5 million put aside for this. Certainly, you have had the opportunity in several of your roles in terms of managing budgets of this magnitude, I would say. How do you envision budgeting the $5.5 million that has been allotted for this position? What direction have you been given? What have you been mandated to do with the $5.5 million?
Nominee for the position of Debates Commisioner, As an Individual
One goes to the mandate in terms of the scope of work, so to speak, and of course the very specific matter is to have two national debates in the two official languages, and then, beyond that, to encourage other debates of other kinds. There is an educational element to it, which we hope we'll address in a very thoughtful way. There's a broad consultation mandate or interest to it. There is a coming to understand how these instruments in our democratic process work in our country and in others and to try to provide the best advice on that, and then to finish it with a report that I hope will be thoughtfully prepared and, again, will involve wide consultation to do the job properly.
What that will cost, I'm not sure. I can assure you—I'm Scottish by heritage—that we will be prudent and reasonable and try to justify wisely those costs. We've begun the work of setting up a secretariat and looking at costs of that sort. We don't have that fully itemized yet, and won't, I think, until we have the advisory board. We take their counsel on it as well.
Calgary Midnapore, CPC
You were not provided with an itemized budget. My colleague Mr. Cullen from the NDP said that podiums cost this much, glasses of water cost that much.... Can you confirm that you haven't been provided an itemized budget?
Nominee for the position of Debates Commisioner, As an Individual
I have not. The word “independent” in the mandate I think is an important one. I think it's respected by the government and is one that I think will be comforting to me and my colleagues. That said, the first place we'll go will be Treasury Board guidelines for various expenditures and we'll be prudent and reasonable.
