Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 19th, 2019

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Autopilot and no votes. Okay. That's fair.

Our next order of business is a study of the Centre Block rehabilitation project. As members will recall, one of our last meetings in Centre Block before it closed was on this subject. We agreed that it was important for PROC to be involved in the process throughout the project, a point that the Speaker supported when he appeared before us recently in relation to the House's interim estimates. The issue was also raised at the February 28 meeting of the Board of Internal Economy.

As we continue the discussion, we're delighted to be joined today by officials from the House of Commons: Michel Patrice, Deputy Clerk, Administration; Stéphan Aubé, Chief Information Officer; and Susan Kulba, Senior Director and Executive Architect, Real Property Directorate.

Thank you all for being here.

Although we're extending this, I still want to have the last five minutes to do some committee business for our next meeting, if that's okay.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Totally.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

You may want to stay, because one of the things I want to talk about is the tree.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

A tree?

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Yes: “the” tree.

Mr. Patrice, if you could give your opening statement and enlighten us, that would be great.

[Michel Patrice, Deputy Clerk, Administration, House of Commons]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. I intend to do a short presentation in order to maximize the exchange with the committee.

I'm pleased to be joining you today to present the governance model approved by the Board of Internal Economy. My goal is to ensure the ongoing involvement of members of Parliament in the Centre Block rehabilitation project and to speak with you so that you have the chance to share your expectations and observations.

In terms of the governance model, at the last meeting of the Board of Internal Economy, the board decided to establish a working group composed of one member from each recognized party. That working group would report to the board but would be involved in the rehabilitation project of Centre Block to ensure that MPs were fully engaged, aware and part of the decision-making. Ultimately, while the authority of the decision rests with the board, they would do a report and go into more of the granularity in terms of the Centre Block rehabilitation project.

Obviously, in addition to this working group, as I said last time I appeared before this committee, at the administrative level there is an integrated working group with the administration of the House of Commons, Public Services and Procurement Canada, and also our Hill partner that is looking at and overseeing the project more in terms of its execution and its implementation.

In addition, there's this committee, which is for us a forum, in terms of the governance, to come here on a regular basis to provide updates and to consult and to receive your views on your expectations and needs.

I would suggest that in a nutshell, this is the model of governance. Obviously, there are other aspects that will flow from the work and from looking at the project in terms of where we go and how Centre Block will be rehabilitated. Other stakeholders, such as the media and the public, will for sure also be engaged in consultation, whether through this committee, the working group or the board itself.

I will say, having gone through the West Block experience, a significant number of lessons were learned from that project. From my perspective and in my personal opinion, the most significant one was that the MPs were not sufficiently engaged in the West Block development and its creation. I welcome, then, the direction we've received from the board in establishing that working group of MPs that will assure their continuous involvement at a high level in the project and its granularity. Centre Block is obviously an iconic building for the centre of parliamentary democracy, but it's also your workplace, so it's important that your needs be taken into consideration and that the reality of your lives here be recognized and taken into account in the rehabilitation.

Susan, Stéphan and I are ready to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Just before I go to the first questioner, did the board make any suggestion that this committee might have input into the Board of Internal Economy if there were a need to make an adjustment in this building?

[Michel Patrice]

The board talked about this committee quite a bit during that discussion and obviously welcomes any involvement this committee may want to have in the project, and recognizes—

[David Christopherson]

Our lobbying worked.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you very much. That's music to our ears.

Mr. Graham.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I don't have a full seven minutes of questions, so I'll start with what I've got for now.

You mentioned you have a new oversight panel of members from the existing parties, to come in. How is it going to work? Will you have one member from each party look over the blueprints, the plans, or have an overview once a year?

[Michel Patrice]

No. I think those MPs are going to be more involved than that. Obviously, we will consult and meet with them on a regular basis.

One of the first asks, I would suggest, given the discussion we had at the board, as members suggested, is that this group come up with proposed guiding principles or fundamental principles for the rehabilitation of the Centre Block. That's going to be in addition to giving them a detailed briefing on the project, its structure, the way it works. The different players and stakeholders will have to have a discussion to develop those guiding and fundamental principles, which obviously will be presented to the board.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

How is the shutdown of Centre Block going now? We've been gone now for a couple of months.

[Susan Kulba, Senior Director and Executive Architect, Real Property Directorate, House of Commons]

To date, obviously it's become a project site. A period of decommissioning has started and there are continued investigations. As you know when you occupied the building, the investigations were slightly intrusive. Now they are getting more and more intrusive. They're the type of investigation work that would have disturbed operations. They are ongoing and will increase over the next number of months, as well as the decommissioning, moving out all of the assets that were left behind at the end of their life cycle. That's where we're at right now.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Is the timeline you're seeing now consistent with what we have heard in the past, of 10 years?

[Michel Patrice]

Ten years has often been mentioned, but I would suggest that it's premature to determine a number of years until the scoping has been deep enough to understand the state of the building. I find it a very interesting project, but I've learned that in reality we're not sure how the building has been constructed. We have pictures from that time. For example, as the building was built over a period of years and rebuilt after the fire, I understand the foundation structure was wood. Then there was a technological change in the industry and it moved to steel. That we have learned from pictures from the construction at the time, so I think it would be premature to talk about how long it's going to take and the state of the building once we start opening it up, but 10 years often comes up. We'll see as it develops.

The same answer would apply to the budget.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Is there any possibility of it being faster than 10 years?

[Michel Patrice]

I think anything is possible.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

A final question before I hand it off to Ms. Sahota, if there's still time.

When I started here, I heard that the West Block was to be closed to put in committee rooms. Is that still the intention? Is that a plan in stone or will we decide 10 years from now?

[Michel Patrice]

I think that option was put on the table. It's not cast in stone right now because there's going to be an evolution over the next 10 years in the needs of Parliament or the House of Commons in that time.

We just heard a discussion about the possible creation of a parallel chamber. Is that an option?

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Is there any reason that West Block has to be closed when Centre Block reopens or could it stay open right through—

[Michel Patrice]

The West Block will stay open after Centre Block is renovated. For example, a lot of the offices here are planned to become MP's offices, MP's suites.

Every option for the chamber is on the table, but it's been designed so it could be reconstructed to create multiple committee rooms.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Ms. Sahota.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

I'm interested to know how you're going to select the MPs for the working committee.

[Michel Patrice]

That's a prerogative of the parties.