Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 5th, 2016

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

In that case, thank you both very much for being here. We appreciated your help today.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you, and I'm sorry for the confusion.

Ms. Petitpas Taylor, you have the floor, ma'am.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, and you pronounced my name right. That's great.

First and foremost, I want to thank both Ms. Beckton and Mr. Prest for being here today. We appreciate your taking time to help us with this really important portfolio that we're looking at.

To start off, probably six years ago I was approached to run provincially in my province, and at the time my reality was very different from what it is now. Back then I was taking care of a mother who suffers from dementia, and I really wanted to be there and needed to be close to home, so I quickly made a decision that the timing was off.

At the time when I was approached to run, they had indicated that first of all they were looking for more women to run provincially and also wanted to make sure we had younger women run. That was one reason I had been asked, and also that I was involved in my community.

Fast forward six years and here I am now. My mother is still living—she's in an assisted facility—but when I reflect upon why I made the decision not to run, it's that there were some obstacles put in the way.

If I look now, I guess that as Canadians we want our Parliament to really reflect our Canadian population. I guess my question—to both of you, really and truly—is how do you think the status quo will encourage or discourage more women from running, or also getting more young people to run to ensure that we have a more inclusive Parliament here in Ottawa?

[Clare Beckton]

Without reference to specific rules, I think the status quo around the culture of combativeness will continue to discourage younger women and women in general, and people from some of the different cultural backgrounds in which that is not the way they operate and not the way they're accustomed to operating. They're more used to a collaborative style. So I think that is one of the things that will continue to inhibit people.

You were talking a little bit earlier about day care. I think for a lot of young parents coming to the Hill, having something that was close might allow them to bring their younger children to be closer to them and their family if that was what was necessary. I've seen a few MPs, who are nursing mothers, trying to manage that in their schedule every day.

I think quite apart from the rules, the culture plays a big role in attracting younger women, and in fact all women, to come, as well as, I think, a certain number of younger men as well, because they're looking at things a little differently today.

[David Prest]

I think we just need to keep moving towards a more family-friendly House, and that will encourage more women to run, because they are usually the ones who are looking after children. I can't think of any rule changes that would encourage.... I think we should just keep moving forward with this study and improving things around here for parents.

[Clare Beckton]

You need EI changes that would provide a specific portion that men could take or they would lose it, as is happening in Quebec. That does really give men permission to take that, which right now is challenging. They find that in their environments it is very challenging to take up the parental leave.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I have one other quick question. Would you both have any suggestions on how to improve decorum in the House?

[Clare Beckton]

He's the rule guy, but I think the Speaker plays a very important role in decorum in the House and how that's enforced, and we heard that earlier today.

I think you also need to make sure you have policies around harassment and codes of conduct. The public service has always had codes of conduct and there are always rules around harassment. It's really important when you can draw that line between what constitutes acceptable behaviour and what might very well constitute harassment, because no one wants to work in an environment that is full of harassment. That applies not only to members but also to their staff and the kinds of things they have to put up with, whether it's workplace harassment or sexual harassment. That's a very important thing that does contribute towards decorum.

[David Prest]

I was here when they used to slam their desktops in the House instead of applauding, and it was noisy and the public did not like it. All it took was, I think, the Conservatives, or Progressive Conservatives, stopping, and then everybody stopped. I think if there is guilt and shame, eventually it will change. It has to come from the members themselves and the public, and once you start changing then everybody will follow.

[Clare Beckton]

The leaders and influencers can make a big difference by modelling the behaviour that they expect and they want in the House. That applies in any organization. When you see the top behaving in a certain way, that starts to send the message that this is the kind of behaviour they want.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

You have about eight seconds.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Moving on, we have a five-minute spot for Mr. Schmale.

You have the floor, sir.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much.

My time last time ran short so I wasn't able to get on that, which was a good thing. I wasn't going to touch on that, but now I have another round.

Just to briefly focus on the heckling part, as I said before, whether you put 338 lawyers in a room or 338 real estate agents, if you are debating a very hot topic—and I've seen it in high school debates—I think you're going to get some tempers rising.

I do agree that there is a limit to heckling, but I also agree that it is a part of the atmosphere, especially when in opposition you ask a question and you believe the answer you get is totally off what you think it should be or it's a non-answer. I think maybe we have to have general question period reform before we get into removing the heckling altogether, but I do understand that being heckled, over and above an acceptable level, can be intimidating for some.

I know some provincial legislatures have taken steps to bring that down and get it under control, but again, I think it's a question of the level of sensitivity of some of the issues we're dealing with as well as the passion that's involved in some of these debates.

I don't know what the right answer is. I don't know who said it at the previous meeting, but I don't think that sitting as though we're in church is acceptable either.

[Clare Beckton]

You can have a spirited debate without necessarily having heckling, and you see that in a lot of spheres. Lawyers do a good job of doing this by being respectful in the courtroom but still having a very significant debate with their esteemed colleague across the table.

I think spirited debate is great and everyone wants to see that and to see that passion. I think when you're demeaning other people as part of that process then it's not that kind of debate.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I don't know who was demeaning.

You might get a moan or a groan, and I've been here only a short time, but I haven't experienced name-calling or anything like that.

[Clare Beckton]

That's good.

[David Prest]

I think some heckling actually adds to a debate, and I think sometimes when there's some mild heckling, it aids a debater, but when it gets out of hand, how do you control that?

I have no suggestions for you except that it could be the Speaker, and as was said earlier, the leadership has to set the tone. There has to be a school for proper heckling or something, some training. I don't have any magic rule changes to suggest.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Just touching on the schedule quickly—how much more time do I have?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

You have two minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

On the schedule, I agree that having an advance schedule is a good thing.

I know, David, you did touch on how having too many sitting weeks in a row could be problematic for people with families. As Mr. Richards said, I don't know if there's a magic number here, but personally that two-week constituency week was great. I got events in, and I got family time, and it was very good. I felt when I came back that I was in a better place and ready to tackle the issues here.

I do recognize personally that when there is one week on and one week off and one week on, it isn't comfortable and I feel as though I can never get settled and I am moving from one place to the next. I like the idea of getting a schedule that we can see in advance, which has somewhat of a pattern if possible, recognizing holidays and that sort of thing. I think that's important too. I like that idea.

I touched on this before, but I think having family-friendly events is very important. I think that is a way to get people involved and it leads to better happiness all around. When you have your spouse here, it's always a better thing too.

I don't know if you have any more tips on that you want to touch on now before I....

[David Prest]

Just with regard to the calendar, the blocks, and the work weeks, the tolerance seems to be three weeks in which you can be productive, and after that it starts to wane. I think ideally, as I mentioned earlier, there should be three-week blocks.

As for the family-friendly events, my kids love coming up here to the Hill, and they come here often. I would just encourage more of that.

They think this place is already family-friendly when they come up here in fact. They ask me if they can go to work with me. I'll bring them to the library or introduce them to people, and they always seem to enjoy it. Sometimes I have to bring them here because the House is sitting late and I have some gaps in my day care, so I bring them here. It's always been a good experience.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Great. Thank you very much.

We have a three-minute slot left and I know, Ms. Sahota, that you were trying to get in there, so I'm going to give you that last three-minute spot before we wrap up.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you for being here, Ms. Beckton and Mr. Prest.

I heard both of you say that when you add more women to politics, you change the culture here. I've also heard it said the other way: why don't we just change the culture and perhaps then we'll be adding more women to Parliament? That's exactly what we're trying to do at this committee here today as we explore ways we can change the culture.

I haven't been hearing a whole lot of concrete ideas. I'm hearing a lot of let's keep the status quo, and it's fun for kids to come up here on the Hill sometimes, but I don't think that's necessarily what we are getting at. Whether we can have a fun event with kids...we should be having those, and I think that's a great idea and I bring my kids up here as well. But it's about getting representation and about making sure the people we have here, whether staff or politicians, end up staying here for the long run as well and not deciding to leave their jobs for particular reasons.

My question is more to you, Ms. Beckton. Could you elaborate a little bit more about what other barriers or challenges you see? You're saying we're at 26% right now. How can we do better? What things should we do? You talk to women every day. We have our own stories, but what are some stories you would like to share?

[Clare Beckton]

I think one of the things that is important is that women need role models, particularly young women. It's important that they see members of Parliament who are women, see what they're doing, and see that they can behave authentically with who they are, and that they don't necessarily have to act like men. That makes it very hard. If you feel you have to be in there heckling and shouting, which is not your normal way of doing things, it can be very discouraging if you come into an environment where that's expected.

It's also about being able to authentically be who they are, speaking to young women, and being encouraging. I think men can encourage women by inviting them to come to the table, because women don't always come to the table on their own. This is something we can certainly work on. I think they need to feel that they have an environment of support. The women's caucuses are important. The cross-party caucuses can play a strong role in telling women when they come, “You will have support, you will not be alone here”, because it can be very lonely when you're trying to find your way into that space.

I think there is a culture around harassment, and we should make sure there is a safe environment and that you have a place where you can report harassment if it happens. You know that it has happened on the Hill. We know it's happened to MPs, and we know it's happened to members of their staff. That is not the kind of environment you want.

The whole environment around respect means that when you see people acting in a respectful manner that does encourage women to look.... Something I hear all the time is that “I don't want to be part of that kind of behaviour”, and “I don't want to have to be treated by the media the way I see the media often treating women”. Those are things that discourage women. There is a certain awareness of what it means to be an MP and what things you can contribute and how valuable that is to our country.