Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 17th, 2016

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

As we know, there are a number of similarities between our two Parliaments. Often we can learn lessons from one another, so I appreciate your presenting to us.

I want to ask about the alternate chamber. You said this was a grand success. What is it about it that you think makes it so successful?

[David Natzler]

The measure of the success is that members attended enthusiastically. Often the debates there are at least as well attended as debates in the main chamber. There are no votes in the alternate chamber. It's not possible to vote, and if the question is opposed it has to be decided in the main chamber. In 15 years, that has never happened, because the business there can possibly be controversial but not necessarily require a decision of the House or a decision of the House on any value.

The debates proceed on an effectively procedural motion that the matter has been considered, and then the debate can take place. It also enjoys a less formal atmosphere than the main chamber. Knowing the size of your current chamber reasonably well, and indeed the one you may be moving to in the West Block, what we have is a room that takes about 60 people in a double horseshoe shape, and it is slightly less oppressive in terms of panelled wood than either our chamber or your chamber. I think that encourages members to take part in a slightly less partisan spirit, but that is also because they sit in a horseshoe shape rather than facing one another, and also because it has a modern feel to it and a less oppositional mode.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

When you say it's in a horseshoe shape, does this mean that one party and another party are still sitting separate from one another, or is it open?

[David Natzler]

My answer as the clerk is that they can sit where they like, but to be truthful, they still sit by party. The minister sits on one side and the shadow minister on the other side, and members will generally sit by party.

I think the physical layout helps. It is presided over not by the Speaker, but either by one of the Deputy Speakers or more normally by one of the panel of neutral chairs we use to chair our committees on bills. It lowers the temperature while still enabling some passionate, well-attended, and interesting debates.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Would there still be a question-and-answer period after each speaker?

[David Natzler]

No, we don't have that. There are speeches, but they can be interrupted if the member concerned gives way, so it exactly reflects the same rules as in the chamber.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You mentioned ministers, so this is not something that's specifically just for private members. Is there actually government business being debated and are there ministers who speak in this chamber?

[David Natzler]

Nowadays there's very little government business, but a member can raise a debate. They can choose a subject and make a speech. Other members, depending on the length of the slot, can also make a speech, and then the minister will respond. Otherwise it would be quite pointless.

In other words, we don't just talk, as you do. The purpose is to get a ministerial response.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'm sharing my time with Ms. Sahota.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you.

Hello. Thank you for being with us today. We're quite intrigued, because we share a similar parliamentary style.

Could you inform us a little bit about what your sitting week looks like? That's my first question, because I don't know if you're sitting Monday to Friday or what days of the week you sit.

[David Natzler]

We sit for 36 weeks in the year, Mondays from 2:30 to 10:30, Tuesdays and Wednesdays from 11:30 to 7:30, Thursdays from 9:30 to 5:30, and we sit for 13 Fridays only in the year from 9:30 to 3:00.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you.

I also have another question about gender parity in the House, male versus female, and diversity. What is the percentage for that?

[David Natzler]

We can send you the exact facts. Twenty-nine per cent of the members are female, which I think means that the others are all male. Well, let's be careful; we have no transgender members.

I'd rather send you the latest ethnic minority breakdown. We have an issue.... Members, unlike staff, are not asked to self-identify, so the identification is external. I think we now have either 32 or 34 openly gay members, which for some reason I'm proud of. It is the highest of any parliament in the world.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Very good.

Also, you said that you have a maternity leave plan, but you described it as “notionally something described as maternity leave”. Could you please elaborate and explain exactly what kind of leave you provide?

[David Natzler]

I'm referring to members here. Obviously, our staff enjoy the same social security benefits as everyone else, and there's a standard public sector package. Indeed, Jo—she's on my right, but I'm not sure where you see her—is about to enjoy the benefits of that package in a few weeks, so she can speak to it more.

In terms of members, because they're not employed, they don't get maternity leave in the form of a different salary arrangement or a time in which they are expected to be away, but we do have, for demographic reasons, increasing numbers of members who have children while they are members, and their parties effectively grant them something they refer to as maternity leave. I'm cautious about using that phrase, because it isn't the same as the leave their constituents get. It is both more advantageous in that they make their own arrangements, but also less advantageous in that they may feel they have to continue with some of their constituency duties very soon after giving birth. It is noticeable that most of them will go away for a short period after the birth before returning to Westminster.

We recently had a minister—and in fact, it's not the first time; it occurred in the last Parliament as well—who had her first child, so she has been given leave. I believe she continues to draw—and you can ask her—her ministerial salary, but someone is substituting for her in her ministerial role while she is away. That is, as it were, an informality. It's not a statutory form of leave.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you.

Now we'll move on to Mr. Schmale.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much for your time today. I do appreciate it.

I have a quick question to build on what you've just said. Somebody would be substituting for the minister. Is that another MP appointed by the Prime Minister? I'm just curious.

[David Natzler]

Yes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay.

I missed your start and finish times when the House is in session. Could you repeat that for me?

[David Natzler]

You want me to repeat the starting times and the finishing times?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Yes, please.

[David Natzler]

On Mondays it's from 2:30 p.m. to 10:30 p.m.; on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, 11:30 a.m. to 7:30 p.m.; on Thursdays, 9:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m.; and on those Fridays on which we sit, 9:30 till 3.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

In terms of the alternate chamber you were talking about and the success you saw, what would the attendance typically be in that secondary chamber?

[David Natzler]

It's difficult to typify. If it's a half-hour debate, it's sometimes simply attended by the backbench member who has raised it and the government minister, sometimes accompanied by a whip or a PPS—in other words, a member who helps to assist him.

In longer debates, the 60-minute or 90-minute debates, you would normally expect seven or eight, and the opposition take part in those as well. There is an opposition front-bench spokesman—a shadow—plus the third party, because, like you, we have a third party. A third party shadow also takes part.

On Monday afternoons between 4:30 and 7:30 in our parallel chamber, we have debates on e-petitions, which are electronically submitted petitions that have reached generally more than 100,000 signatures. We've had about 20 of those. It's a novelty. Those have been quite well attended and, in some cases, very heavily attended.

For some of the hour-and-a-half debates, we may get 30 or 40 members. For example, if it's on the steel industry or on a particular region or issue, then the regional members are all likely to attend and may only have three or four minutes each to speak.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Part of the concern I had with the secondary chamber was that you were basically speaking to an empty room. I'm glad to hear that in your case there is some back-and-forth and that the attendance isn't just one person speaking to himself or herself.