Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 19th, 2017

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

The question is, is that a reference to the amount that was raised if a person's name was left off the list? Does it mean the entire amount raised at the event, or is it going to vary from one situation to another?

You see what I'm getting at. There are two different ways. I just want to find out what your understanding is.

[Madeleine Dupuis]

Could I ask you to repeat that, please?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Let's say you have an event at which the leader of the party is the headliner. That's done correctly. They leave off the name of attendee John Smith. Is the basis of the penalty John Smith's contribution of $400 so that now $800 is the penalty due, or is it that everything that was raised at the event is forfeit? That's one kind of infraction you could have.

Another kind of infraction you could have is that you intended to have headliner A, but headliner B shows up instead, or some other macro-level thing happens. Perhaps they forgot to register the event, and now they have $10,000 raised. Do you see what I'm getting at? There are two different ways in which this.... That's what I'm asking about.

[Madeleine Dupuis]

It's a very good question. Unfortunately, it's unclear to me which of those would apply as it's currently drafted, because it says “obtained by committing the offence”. It's a little unclear. It would depend how Elections Canada interprets the provision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Could we jump ahead to Ms. May and ask if she wants to clarify that?

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you.

With all due respect to the analyst, I don't think that's unclear. That would be, as Jean-Pierre Kingsley's testimony suggested, specific to how much was achieved, how much was raised by committing the offence. It's not the entire event.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

How do you quantify how much is raised if a different person comes?

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Scott asked about someone's name being left off the list. If the entire event is suspect because that's the offence, then it would be double the amount raised at the event. If it's a specific infraction that relates to a specific individual, it would be the amount related to that one individual.

[An hon. member]

How would you calculate that?

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

It would be based on what their donation was.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Go ahead, Mr. Graham.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I understand what she is trying to do. I don't agree, but the larger point here is in a situation where you have a conviction under this act, you now have an Elections Act conviction for that person involved with that, which is a much bigger penalty than any monetary amount, because now your headline is “MP”—Minister, whatever—“convicted of Elections Act violation”. That's a much bigger punishment in any case. It's a political punishment, not a monetary punishment.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

That applies now regardless of the—

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

It would apply to this act as well. If you violate this act and you are convicted, you now have this additional penalty of being at the top of the national news.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

We'll go to Mr. Hoback.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

With regard to the Green Party amendment, I have problems with not having a firm number there, because how you calculate that number becomes very confusing. That $1,000 might be too much, but twice the amount, if you're looking at that amount.... If a volunteer who puts together a fundraiser for me makes a mistake and raises $10,000 and all of a sudden my EDA, my electoral district association, has to cut a cheque for $20,000—

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

—and hold a fundraiser to pay for it—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Yes, exactly. To me that seems to be a little extreme and not really practical, but if it is a relevant amount, then it makes sense and then a penalty is paid.

I also think our colleague David made a point. There is the public perception and stigma that comes with that too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Ms. Sahota is next, and then Ms. Tassi.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

I again wanted some clarification from the officials that the act originally would require the person who committed the offence to forfeit all the money raised at the fundraiser and then pay a $1,000 fine in addition. Is that correct?

[Madeleine Dupuis]

That is if they are convicted. Then they pay the fine. The return of contributions occurs once they become aware that the fundraiser didn't meet the rules.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

If the fundraiser breaks the rules, then they forfeit all money they raised—

[Madeleine Dupuis]

Then they have to return the contributions.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

—and it's not just from the one person who was left off the list. It's not just that portion.

[Madeleine Dupuis]

It's all money fundraised.