Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 19th, 2017

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

This added on top would mean that if, say, my EDA had a fundraiser at $30,000 or so, missed somebody or a couple of people or whatever, and the end result was it was considered an offence, then I would forfeit that $30,000, and then on top of that the EDA would have to pay $60,000. Is that what would happen with this amendment?

[Madeleine Dupuis]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Go ahead, Ms. Tassi.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

That was my question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Go ahead, Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

These were some of my concerns when I first started to think about it, but as I said earlier, I'm not necessarily wedded to $5,000. I would hope a majority of us would agree that $1,000 is a little low. Can we come to an agreement on a higher number?

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Is there any further debate on amendment PV-3?

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

David, do you want to—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I don't need to give a speech. I've heard everything. If you can't support the $5,000, I hope we get a subamendment we can rally around. I'll leave it at that, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Is there any discussion on changing the penalty from $1,000 to $5,000?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Yes, I'll speak in favour of it. There's an obvious problem with a $1,000 penalty for an event at which the price of admission is more than $1000.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

You have to return all of it.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

I still think that $5,000 is a more reasonable number. If I'm not mistaken, it's up to $5,000. Is that right?

That seems reasonable. You get some discretion there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Sorry; is it “up to”?

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

[Inaudible—Editor]

Oh, no. You're changing it to $5,000. Sorry.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

It says “not more than $5,000”, so it's “up to”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Maybe we should ask the officials.

When it is “not more than $5,000”, who decides how much the fine is?

[Madeleine Dupuis]

It would be the judge.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

A judge?

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

So it could drop to $10? Do we have that risk?

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It's up to the judge.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

That's not unreasonable. If it's a purely technical oversight, you're still going to be nailed, actually, but you're not getting nailed with an additional fine.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You're going to get the headline, though.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

And forfeit all your funding.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I'd like to echo what Mr. Graham was talking about. We have to look at the entirety of what happens if there is a contravention of the act.

If you have your $10,000 fundraiser, you are giving that back, plus you're now facing a charge under the Elections Act, plus a conviction that carries a significant political penalty. I believe that a $1,000 fine on its own, with no additional punishment in terms of having to forfeit what you've raised, absolutely isn't enough, because you could raise $30,000 with a $1,000 cost of doing business, but if you're giving back $30,000 or $10,000 per riding association, plus being convicted under the Elections Act, politically I think the penalty is sufficient and encourages a significant level of deterrence overall.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Is there any further discussion?