Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 5th, 2017

[James Hicks, National Coordinator, Council of Canadians with Disabilities]

Hello, everyone. My name is James Hicks, and I'm with the Council of Canadians with Disabilities.

We also want to thank you for allowing us to come and talk about what we feel are some of the issues around elections and people's understanding of leaders' debates.

Just so that you know something about CCD, we're a national human rights organization “of” people with various disabilities, not “for”. It's an important distinction. We're working for an accessible and inclusive Canada.

CCD is delighted that the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs is conducting a study about appointing an independent commissioner to organize televised leaders' debates during federal election campaigns. We have, for a number of years, submitted questions to the leaders that we hoped would be included, and they never have been, not once.

Before I start talking about what should happen, what I'd like to talk to you about is the obligations Canada has to make sure that these things happen. Canada has signed on to the Convention on the Rights of Persons With Disabilities. It's been in place for a number of years now. Article 29 is on participation in political and public life, and states:

States Parties shall guarantee to persons with disabilities political rights and the opportunity to enjoy them on an equal basis with others, and shall undertake:

To ensure that persons with disabilities can effectively and fully participate in political and public life on an equal basis with others, directly or through freely chosen representatives, including the right and opportunity for persons with disabilities to vote and be elected, inter alia, by:

Ensuring that voting procedures, facilities and materials are appropriate, accessible and easy to understand...

Protecting the right of persons with disabilities to vote by secret ballot...

—and get assistance from they people they choose, not somebody else—

Guaranteeing the free expression of the will of persons with disabilities as electors and to this end, where necessary, at their request, allowing assistance in voting...

To promote actively an environment in which persons with disabilities can effectively and fully participate in the conduct of public affairs, without discrimination and on an equal basis with others, and encourage their participation in public affairs, including:

Participation in non-governmental organizations and associations...

Forming and joining organizations of persons with disabilities to represent persons with disabilities at international, national, regional and local levels.

In addition, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees equality before and under the law to people with disabilities. The Canadian Human Rights Act guarantees to people with disabilities that they will not experience discrimination in the federal jurisdiction with respect to the provision of goods and services. This includes the right to vote and the right to be a part of the whole voting process, which includes the debates. If those things are not there, it will not come true.

I could talk a lot about some of the things that people have already talked about. I was going to bring up ASL and LSQ interpretation, and I was also going to bring up audio narration during the debates' key visual elements to make sure that people are aware of the non-verbal communication that takes place during a debate. I was going to mention the use of plain language for people who aren't necessarily grasping the language well, and closed captioning so that people who are hard of hearing have access to the debates' information. I'll note that accessibility accommodations should be available in all locations and platforms to ensure participation of citizens with disabilities in the audience and participation of potential candidates who may have disabilities.

In addition, I'd like to talk about how you may become compliant.

If it is determined that an independent commissioner is to be tasked with organizing televised leaders' debates, then he or she will need to ensure full participation is spelled out in whatever legislation authorizes the establishment of the commissioner. There's an obligation to organize debates that are fully accessible to Canadians with disabilities and inclusive of the concerns of people with disabilities so that this component of Canadian elections meets the expectations set out in article 29 of the CRPD.

To ensure that the format of the debates is truly inclusive and accessible, the legislation should require the commissioner, in advance of planning a debate, to consult with the representative organizations of people with disabilities concerning the accessibility and inclusion measures that are needed to ensure compliance with article 29.

Legislation should require that the commissioner establish an advisory committee consisting of individuals appointed by the self-representative organizations of people with disabilities, who will advise on debate questions that are inclusive of the concerns of Canadians with disabilities.

The commissioner should undertake a post-debate evaluation of the accessibility and inclusiveness of the debate, and the commissioner should report to Parliament about the measures that were taken to ensure the accessibility and inclusiveness of the debate and the outcome of the post-debate evaluation.

Thank you for your consideration of the issues of Canadians with disabilities. Only when Canada truly ensures full political participation by Canadians, regardless of ability, will Canada be able to call itself an inclusive country.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you all for your presentations, and also for the work you do every day. We really appreciate it. Canada really appreciates it.

Now we'll go to our seven-minute round, which includes both questions and answers.

Go ahead, Mr. Bittle.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you so much.

Thank you, everyone, for your presentations. They provide an excellent perspective.

I'll start with you, Ms. Bergeron. Thank you for your comments, and also for giving me some perspective in terms of the next time I go door to door. It's not necessarily just one campaign but 338 campaigns, times all the various parties, so I appreciate that insight.

Specifically on the debate coverage, you mentioned descriptive audio. There have been some public service announcements and commercials about it. Can you describe a bit how that works and where individuals access that service? How would it work for a debate?

[Diane Bergeron]

Yes, absolutely.

To start, just so you know, the document we handed out earlier is actually not the information you need in the next federal election, but our briefing note, which we will provide to you in English and French afterwards. We didn't want to give it to you in advance, for obvious reasons.

Descriptive video is really a narration that is overdubbed on top of any kind of visual. It doesn't interfere with people speaking, but if somebody is using a video or a picture or if they are using a lot of gestures or signals, that can be fully described. People will say, for instance, this speaker is doing this gesture, or they're showing a picture that shows this image. If it's a video, they will describe what's in the video. That's how it works.

AMI does a lot of this work on their channel. All of their programming has descriptive video. There's other descriptive video on programs on TV as well.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

You also mentioned screen readers. Can you describe a bit how websites aren't accessible to screen readers?

[Diane Bergeron]

A screen reader is a synthesizer that reads, in an electronic voice, what's on the screen to a person who is blind or partially sighted. If the website meets the WCAG standards, WCAG 3 or WCAG 2.0—I'm sorry, I don't know all the numbers in there—the website can be accessible with that. If there are some images there or some videos that are not described, or if they're set up so that the screen reader can't read what's on the screen or sometimes if there's imaging or programming in the background, it stops the voice synthesizer from working. It doesn't allow us to access.

There is also the fact that it's very difficult if you don't have proper colour contrast. I know that a lot of parties like to stick to their colours on the website, and that's understandable. However, sometimes that's not the best contrast for someone with low sight.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Folino, you mentioned ASL and closed captioning. Is it important that they exist together, or would one be acceptable? Is it necessary that they both be there for full accessibility?

[Frank Folino]

The answer is that you require both. Closed captioning is primarily for the hard of hearing community, and anyone with intellectual disabilities can watch the closed captioning. It benefits everyone. Sign language, ASL and LSQ, needs to be there simultaneously as well.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I'll go back to my time as a lawyer. When I would read transcripts, it would be very difficult to figure out, when lawyers would talk over each other, what was being said. In a debate format, that often happens. How does ASL or closed captioning deal with that situation, if they can?

[Frank Folino]

The interpreters can regulate conversation. For example, if you look at the Quebec election platform a few years ago, it was televised, and it had four sign language interpreters simultaneously working, one representing each party. They were neutral, obviously. The interpreters would just interpret the conversation happening back and forth, and it was quite effective. It's available on YouTube if you want to see a sample. That seemed to work very well.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I have two minutes. I think this is a question that I've opened up, and I apologize for the lack of time.

Do existing social media platforms do a good job with regard to accessibility issues? How can they be used for a debate, or how can it be improved?

[James Hicks]

I can try to answer some of that anyway.

I think it depends on what social media platform you're using. If you use one that's primarily visual, my guess is that it does not include any text in the background that people with visual impairments would be able to use. If you're talking about text-based media like Twitter, that probably would not be a problem. People would be able to access it fairly well. I think maybe other people can talk about what it is for them.

It really depends. It's like television. There are certain channels that provide what's needed for people who can't see what's on the screen to understand it. Most of them don't. It's the same with social media. Most of the stuff doesn't.

[Frank Folino]

I want to clarify. When there is a televised national debate, and there's closed captioning, audio descriptive narratives, and sign language interpreters on the screen, make sure that it's also provided on social media platforms, on Twitter and elsewhere, because sometimes an individual may be out, but the election debate happens that evening, and that individual doesn't only want to have the limited choice of watching it on TV. That individual may want to have that accessibility provided on his or her mobile device in accessing other platforms, so you need to ensure that all of those outlets are accessible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you, Mr. Bittle.

Now we'll go on to Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I guess the question I have will be to all of you. However, I'll ask it slightly differently to each of you, so give me a second, and then I'll let you all respond.

Mr. Folino and Mr. Hicks, you both in your opening statements mentioned some very specific examples of concerns with past debates. It wasn't clear in both cases whether that has been something that has been consistently a problem. Have there been debates in the past in which some of those issues have been addressed or been dealt with so that you or your members were able to properly access debates?

Ms. Bergeron and Mr. Simpson, can you give me some more specifics on some of the concerns that you have specifically seen in debates in the past? Again, have those been consistent issues, or have you seen debates in which some of those things have been addressed?

[Frank Folino]

Picture-in-picture sign language interpretation has never happened in a political debate. I think it just has to happen once for it to become precedent.

[James Hicks]

From the perspective of CCD, number one, as we said, is that we have for years sent in questions about disability. They have never been included. There has not been a question about disability on any leaders' debate ever, and it would be nice to see that happen.

I think it's really important that you not look at disability as a separate issue, because it applies to everybody. For instance, if there was a question on violence against women, it should include reference to the concerns of women and girls with disabilities and deaf women and girls in a meaningful way, because they have their own issues around those things.

It's a matter of recognizing that the issues are not always the same, but they need to be addressed. It's a matter of helping people to understand that. If a commissioner is appointed, that commissioner needs to spend time or have an advisory committee from the disability community to understand what questions he or she needs to ask and what supports need to be put in place so that everything is actually made accessible for folks.

[Diane Bergeron]

I would love to answer your question.

The problem is that because the debates are not always accessible, I have no idea what has been missed. I have no idea if a video or an image has been put up in the background or what expressions and body language people are using. I can sometimes infer what a person is expressing based on the debate, but it's not always there, and I often miss that visual piece. I would really like to say that this is what was missed, but I'm never going to be able to tell you, because I don't know. I know there have been things; I just don't know what they are.

We agree with the concept of making sure that the commissioner consults with people with disabilities. We know our needs and we can help to give them that information and we can help them to better understand what types of accommodation need to be in place and also make sure they understand the importance of doing that.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Can I follow up on that, Ms. Bergeron? I can appreciate that you wouldn't know what had been missed. Are you aware of times when you felt the debate was produced in a way that you were getting all the information you needed from the debate, or has that never occurred that you're aware of?

[Diane Bergeron]

It has never occurred. I can hear what the person is saying, but if all we needed was to hear what people are saying, why would we need visuals? It is important to remember visuals are there for a reason.

I don't know when it has, and I've never had it happen. I've been to several debates in my community, and I've never once been provided information in Braille or in an electronic format that I could take home and read.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

In addressing these issues, it sounds as if you're all comfortable with the idea of a commission, but would you see that as the only way of being able to address these issues? Could it perhaps be required of the folks who are producing the debates—whether it be a consortium or whether it be the model from the last election when various people chose to have debates—to consult, determine what the needs are, and address them without the need for a commission, or could perhaps the folks who are producing the debates choose to do that without the need for a commission ?

What would be your thoughts on that? Is that the only way you could see this being addressed, or are there other ways we could address some of these issues?

[Diane Bergeron]

It's not necessarily the only way. I think it's probably the best way, because somebody would be responsible. Either a commissioner or a committee would be in charge of making sure it was in place.

If it wasn't the way the committee would go, I would recommend that you look at making sure there are very good regulations and structures that make sure all the things that all three of us have talked about are done appropriately and in consultation with the community of people who need accommodation.

Do you have anything to add?

[James Hicks]

You're talking about the leaders' debates, but all kinds of things go on during elections that the same rules apply to, so if debates are going on in other places, it may be necessary to look at an exemption of any costs related to adaptation so that people with disabilities can participate in regular debates in other things. There's a whole bunch of stuff.

Lots of things we've talked about need to be looked at from a broader perspective. If you just talk about the leaders' debates, then it leaves out an awful lot of activity around political life and around the decisions people make. We're not just making decisions about the leaders. It's really important to look at it from an overall perspective. If we can get it right for the leaders, then what sorts of things do we have to put in place for parties to be able to get it right no matter where they are? That may include some regulations around spending money and all those sorts of things. You need to begin to look at those things.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Folino.

[Frank Folino]

I would just like to add to the recent comments by my colleagues. It's important to have an independent consortium commission or commissioner to consult with and include disability advisory groups, so that regardless of the jurisdiction, the requirements are provided everywhere.

For people with disabilities, we want to involve experts in the discussion about accommodations so that everyone can work together to provide ongoing advice to the commissioner, or the potential committee. Then they will know what they have to provide during the leaders' debates, and we will be able to provide the appropriate feedback. That will include all of the issues for people with disabilities, and we're certainly there to help and assist in providing a better and more accessible election debate. We want to remove every kind of barrier.