Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 22nd, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, and welcome to the 94th meeting of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Today we're continuing our study on the use of indigenous languages in proceedings of the House of Commons.

Just before we do that, though, I want to quickly do some committee business. Next Thursday, when we normally meet, is now on a Friday schedule, and that would be during question period, so my assumption is we may want to postpone that meeting. Is anyone opposed to that?

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

The second thing is I have a letter here from Mr. Christopherson that I will just read out for the record.

I just wanted to send a quick note to you and our committee colleagues to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed my time on PROC and I will miss the opportunity to work with such a passionate and dedicated group of MPs. I am proud of the work we have accomplished, and although committee members didn't always see eye to eye, we always remained respectful of each other and did our best to find common ground.

PROC is really a special committee and I know you will all continue to do great work on behalf of all parliamentarians and Canadians.

I would like to give a special thanks to you, Larry, for your excellent work as Chair. Following in the footsteps of Joe Preston was never going to be easy but you have matched his stature and are an important part of our committee's success. And of course, I would like to give a big thanks to our staff and analysts whose professionalism and expertise always make us look smarter than we sometimes are.

Thank you again and best of luck to the committee on your future work.

Sincerely,

David Christopherson, MP Hamilton Centre

Today's first witness is Ms. Georgina Jolibois, member of Parliament for Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River. Ms. Jolibois will deliver her opening statement in Dene, and once again we have made arrangements for interpretation into both official languages.

Welcome to our committee, Ms. Jolibois. You may now proceed with your opening statement. Thank you very much for coming. Mahsi cho.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

This morning is a nice day. Sitting here together, I'm happy to be here. I'm thankful to the House committee. Thank you for allowing me to speak my language. I'm thankful to the people on this committee for the opportunity to speak my language.

The reason I'm sitting here speaking my language is that when we're sitting there in the House of Commons, I'm not allowed to speak my Dene language. I speak English and I don't speak French.

What I want to talk about is where I'm from and my culture and my job, I want to talk to you about that.

I was born in La Loche, Saskatchewan. My parents brought me up with my Dene culture. That's why I am a Dene person.

I'm here to ask you to let Dene be spoken in the House of Commons. That's why I'm here. I'm thankful for that with all my heart.

It's difficult to speak my Dene language with my Liberal colleagues or MP Romeo Saganash.

When we come to Ottawa, the way I live is different from when I go back to my community. I was mayor of the community of La Loche for 12 years. I was there for a long time, helping out the community of La Loche. I did a lot of work for my community.

In 2015, I entered politics to be an MP for Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River. I was voted in to be here today. I'm a member from the La Loche community, a Dene person. Living in La Loche, my community, we spoke Dene, living our culture. We are surrounded by media, TV. The CBC channel was introduced in 1979. Other than that, there was nothing. We learned O Canada through the CBC.

Through my culture, my grandparents taught me to live my traditional life—fishing, snaring rabbits, setting a fishnet. We survived on that. It's our source of food.

I graduated from high school, from grade 12, in La Loche. I spoke Dene all the time with my colleagues. Becoming an adult, I learned English. When I graduated from high school, I went to university. I relocated to Saskatoon. I moved to a larger centre and from there I learned to speak more English. I'm still learning to speak English, and I'm proud to be a speaker of the English language too.

Where I'm located, there are people who speak the Cree language, the Michif language, and also the Dene language. When I get back to my community, we speak the Dene language all the time. There are quite a few speakers of that language in our area in what we call northern Saskatchewan. Fond du Lac, Black Lake, and Hatchet Lake are Dene communities. Patuanak, Dillon, and Turnor Lake are also Dene communities.

There are also Dene people out in Manitoba. In Alberta, we have Dene people living close to Saskatchewan. In the area of the Northwest Territories, there are also Dene people.

This is a big deal, and I'm thankful that we're sitting here together and talking about it—not just me, but all together—with people to look at us and for children to understand and to watch us, to say that this is what've we've done, and also, in terms of the education system, to say that this is what we're asking and what we're doing for our language. It's difficult.

What I'm talking about is that when I was elected as an MP, when I first tried tried to get elected to the House of Commons, they asked me to speak Dene at the House of Commons. That's what they told me. That's why it's still with me today. It's because I'm a member now. Recently I became a member, and I remember that once the people asked me to speak Dene in Parliament.

The person who is speaking the Dene language is here. We grew up together in the same community. We both speak Dene and we both speak English. The person who sits here understands English, and he's quite a ways from home.

There are a lot of people, I guess, who know Dene. I won't be the only person here in the House of Commons. There are a lot of Dene people, young people. If they want to be an MP in the future, if they get on the ballot, they might win. To give them an opportunity is why I'm asking for this. It's for the future, for our Dene people to look at us and to be proud of us for what we're doing.

Sometimes we don't all agree. We were at the educational institutions to talk about the Dene language. If we do this together, in Canada here, there are a lot of us here—not only Dene people, but also people speaking the Cree language. There are a lot of aboriginal people in Canada. There are a lot of aboriginal people in the provinces, in Newfoundland and the Northwest Territories, and in Nunavut and Yukon. There are also a lot of aboriginal people in B.C. They all think about speaking their languages and about talking about their languages in Canada.

I'm a member, and I'm a Canadian citizen from La Loche, Saskatchewan. I remember the way my grandparents taught us a long time ago and what they used to say. One of them was a chief.

They always told us to remember where you're from based on your language. If you have the opportunity to speak Dene, you speak Dene. That's why, in Canada.... I can speak in English after this.

If we make a commitment, we can really try hard to do it for the younger generation, even the adults. We can speak to them and tell them to have a strong mind, a strong heart, and to remember where they're from. That's the way we'll be in Canada. We are here together, being proud and working together.

Aboriginals also speak their Michif language. When Louis Riel was here, he probably thought the same way too. They give us the opportunity to get something. People say to ask politicians for something, so they can get something from them, but I think we can do this together.

The interpreter is from my community. He went to school, and there's not only him. There are a lot of people in our community who can speak and translate Dene. There's Allan Adam and also Cheryl Herman.

If we get together, we can do this together, and also for you too. I'm happy to be here with you. I'll say it again. In Canada, I know that it's not easy to ask for the opportunity to speak the Dene language. It's not just me. We have to find a way to do it. That's why I'm asking you today.

Thank you very much. This is an opportunity for you to ask questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Meegwetch.

I want to also welcome Kennedy Stewart to our committee today, as well as the interpreter in Dene.

Thank you very much. It's great to have you here. It's an exciting second historic day of our meetings.

We're going to make sure that each party at least gets a chance, but can you be generous in sharing your times if there are other members in your party who want to speak?

Go ahead, Mr. Graham.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you for being here. Thank you for bringing this to our attention the way you have. I really appreciate it.

As I mentioned to our colleague Mr. Saganash two days ago, I think, the right to speak already exists, but the much more important right is the right to be understood, and I think that's a right that we have to address, and it's a very important study in that regard.

One thing we learned that I think took all of us by surprise was that in Cree, there is no word for MP. I heard in the translation that you kept saying “MP” in Dene. Is there a word in Dene for MP that is not English?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

The way we speak and understand our language, the way I'm talking to you right now, is through observation. Sometimes it's difficult to translate. When we say “MP”, the way we talk about it is as a part of government, the top government, the person who's in charge of paperwork.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

[Technical difficulty—Editor]

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

[Technical difficulty—Editor]

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

One of the quirks of our system is that when my mike is on, I don't hear the translation anymore. I'll have to make sure it gets turned off properly.

Can you give me a sense of the current population in the country whose first language is Dene? Are there any kind of numbers?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

In my community of La Loche, I'm proud of our children learning to speak English. It's easy for them to learn English, but in our community the kids are still speaking Dene the children on the reservation still speak Dene. Up in the Northwest Territories, Alberta, and Manitoba, there are Dene people. They still speak the Dene language in their communities. At least 5,000 people still speak Dene in that area.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

In your view, what is the process we need to be following? What steps are necessary to ensure that languages that are to be spoken in the House are properly supported? How do you see it working? What ideas do you have to propose?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Today, among the members of the committee, I'm the only MP who speaks Dene. To speak our language, to translate it, to talk about it, they're here. I think it will be easy to speak our languages in the House of Commons. I think it will be easy to speak Dene in Parliament. In Saskatchewan, Dene speakers can be elected and can speak my language. We have done this before. To do this will be easier.

The way I see it, the people who are working at the House of Commons are going to see what you have done in this committee, what has been done in research. They will look at what people have done before and say, “We can do this in the House of Commons too.”

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

In terms of languages—because there are a lot of indigenous languages in the country, not three or four—what is reasonable? Should any language be available for translation by request? Over the long term, how do you see it? How many languages should be available, and how should we do it?

For the moment, at the start, is it reasonable for you that a notice period is given in order to ensure that a translator is available for your particular speech intervention in question period or whenever it is, and should the translation be bidirectional?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

What do you mean by “bidirectional”?

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Right now we have a fourth channel on our listening system. If you go to channel 4, it says “Den” for Dene, but I don't think anybody is translating in the other direction right now. I'm using that as an example.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'm here, yes, but it's not just me. It's also the person who's going to interpret for me. We need to ask for that ahead of time, to get it ready and arrange for the person who's going to interpret for me to come over here to Ottawa from Saskatchewan to prepare for that. In the future, in the 2019 election, whoever is elected will come here, so there might be a Dene person here. It might be difficult to speak Dene if we're still working on this Dene interpretation, but in the future it might be easier with technology, and not only in the Dene language. There might be two to 10 Dene speakers sitting here with us. In the future it might be easier for this to happen.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

When you arrived as a member of Parliament, did anybody in your orientation ask you what languages you spoke besides English and French?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

No. Nobody asked me. I speak English. It's easy for me to speak English. Some people think I only speak English. When I had the opportunity, when I got elected, I spoke Dene with the NDP people I work with.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Go ahead, Mr. Reid.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Mr. Chairman, is it seven-minute rounds this time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Yes, but share it if you have to, because we may not get back to you.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

We may not have a second round. Okay, I'll try to reflect that.

I want to say that although I didn't know it at the time, my first experience with the Dene language was back in the mid-eighties when I was helping to organize something called the student commonwealth conference. High school kids would fly into Ottawa from all over Canada to have a simulated commonwealth heads of government meeting. We got to host a couple of kids from Fond du Lac for a little while. All I remember is that they were nice kids, and now they'd be middle-aged people like me. Anyway, that was my first experience.

I want to start with some questions about understanding the language itself, and part of this is my own natural curiosity. There are, of course, many aboriginal languages in Canada. Some have a very small number of speakers and are considered by UNESCO to be endangered. It has a ranking for whether a certain language is endangered, ranging from vulnerable to definitely endangered to severely endangered to critically endangered. Other ones, it seems to me, are in a position such that their long-term viability is very high.

I want to ask as a starting point whether you think the Dene language is endangered, or is it likely, demographically, to survive in the future?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

The way I think about it is that I'm proud when I go back to my community in northern Saskatchewan, either in Fond du Lac, Black Lake, Hatchet Lake, or La Loche, and in surrounding communities like Dillon, Patuanak, and Cold Lake, Alberta, too. Children, adults, or whoever are strong English speakers. To speak our language in the far north, people write in their language, but how can we maintain that? We're fighting really hard to do that.

The way I think about it for the future, when we're living for a long period of time, we're going to keep our language alive.