Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Sept. 28th, 2020

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I just have another suggestion. What if we were to take this clause and add to the end of it, “for members who have confirmed their presence”? That way the clerk would be authorized to do so, but only for members who have confirmed their presence.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay, so you are going to remove the wording “committee and its subcommittees”, and you're going to add on—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

No, it would read the same, but it would say “for the committee and its subcommittee members who have confirmed their presence”, or it could say “confirmed their physical presence” if you want to be clear, because virtual presence now counts, so maybe we would say “physical presence”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay, let's call the question.

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

We're through the routine motions.

Sorry, guys, I know that it may have taken a little longer than you expected, but I have seen where it has taken weeks as well, so it's not too bad, not the worst-case scenario.

There are different studies I think the committee would be interested in looking at. I could walk you through some of the studies that we have suggested as a committee.

Yes, go ahead.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I would like to move a motion, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Yes, Mrs. Vecchio.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Gerretsen, hopefully I will do it in less than six minutes.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

We amended that to five minutes.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I move:

That, in anticipation of the committee receiving an Order of reference, pursuant to Standing Order 32(7), no later than the 20th sitting day of the present Session, the committee shall consider the document outlining the government’s reasons for the latest prorogation and, in preparation for that study,

(a) invite the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, and the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons each to appear separately before the committee for at least three hours, provided that in respect of each of them who does not agree, within one week of the adoption of this motion, to accept this invitation for the length of time prescribed, the Chair shall be instructed to report to the House forthwith a recommendation that this committee be empowered to order his or her appearance from time to time;

(b) an order of the committee do issue for all memoranda, e-mails, documents, notes or other records from the Prime Minister’s Office and the Privy Council Office, since June 25, 2020, concerning options, plans and preparations for the prorogation of Parliament, provided that these documents shall be provided to the clerk of the committee within ten days of the adoption of this motion;

(c) an order of the committee do issue for a record of all communications between the government and any of WE Charity (or its affiliated organizations), Craig Kielburger, Marc Kielburger, Speakers’ Spotlight, Rob Silver or MCAP since June 25, 2020, in respect of the prorogation of Parliament, provided that these documents shall be provided to the clerk of the committee within ten days of the adoption of this motion;

(d) an order of the committee do issue to WE Charity (including its affiliated organizations), Craig Kielburger, Marc Kielburger and Speakers’ Spotlight for all memoranda, e-mails, documents, notes or other records, since June 25, 2020, concerning the prorogation of Parliament, provided that these documents shall be provided to the clerk of the committee within ten days of the adoption of this motion;

(e) an order of the committee do issue for the unredacted version of all documents produced by the government in response to the July 7, 2020, order of the Standing Committee on Finance, provided that these documents shall be provided to the clerk of the committee within 24 hours of the adoption of this motion;

(f) an order of the committee do issue to each member of the Cabinet, including the Prime Minister, and to the Honourable Bill Morneau requiring that they prepare and make a return to the clerk of the committee, within 10 days of the adoption of this motion, (i) indicating the date and summary of every communication they, a member of their ministerial exempt staff, or a volunteer in their ministerial office had between March 1 and April 22, 2020, with Marc Kielburger, Craig Kielburger, WE Charity (or its affiliated organizations), or any employee, agent or representative of any of them, and (ii) providing all records of the communications referred to in subparagraph (i);

(g) an order of the committee do issue to require the government to prepare and make a return to the clerk of the committee, within 10 days of the adoption of this motion, indicating (i) what criteria were used by public servants to determine that only WE Charity could deliver the Canada Student Service Grant, (ii) which individuals were responsible for designing the parameters of the Canada Student Service Grant, (iii) who was present at any meeting where the parameters of the Canada Student Service Grant were discussed, and (iv) whether the Canada Student Service Grant was approved through the ordinary Treasury Board submission process and, if not, what the variations were;

(h) an order of the committee do issue to WE Charity (including its affiliated organizations), Craig Kielburger and Marc Kielburger to prepare and make a return to the clerk of the committee, within 10 days of the adoption of this motion, indicating every corporation, trust, charity, association, entity or individual (including, for greater certainty, those affiliated with WE Charity) which WE Charity and WE Charity Foundation shared, or intended to share, data concerning the Canada Student Service Grant;

(i) an order of the committee do issue to Craig Kielburger, Marc Kielburger, Fred Kielburger, Theresa Kielburger, Dalal Al-Waheidi, Scott Baker and Victor Li to prepare and make a return to the clerk of the committee, within 10 days of the adoption of this motion, indicating the name of every corporation, trust, charity, association or entity in which each of them is, or has been at any time since January 1, 2015, a member, director or officer, together with (i) the name of the jurisdiction in which it is incorporated, (ii) the office in it held by the person completing the return, including the date the office was assumed and, if relevant, vacated, (iii) the relationship it has to any other organization named in the return, and (iv) the name of any subsidiary it owns or controls;

(j) an order of the committee do issue to WE Charity (including its affiliated organizations) and NATIONAL Public Relations for any contract between those organizations pertaining to the delivery of the Canada Student Service Grant, together with all memoranda, e-mails, documents, notes or other records related to the negotiation, implementation and termination of that contract, provided that these documents shall be provided to the clerk of the committee within three weeks of the adoption of this motion;

(k) an order of the committee do issue to Speakers’ Spotlight for a copy of all records pertaining to speaking appearances arranged, since October 14, 2008, for Justin Trudeau, Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, Margaret Trudeau and Alexandre Trudeau—including, in respect of each speaking appearance, an indication of the fee provided, any expenses that were reimbursed and the name of the company, organization, person or entity booking it—which had been originally ordered to be produced on July 22, 2020, by the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, provided that these documents shall be provided to the clerk of the committee within 24 hours of the adoption of this motion;

(l) an order of the committee do issue for all memoranda, e-mails, documents, notes or other records, including Cabinet papers, in the care, custody or control of the government or of the Honourable Bill Morneau, related to program design for the Canada Emergency Commercial Rent Assistance and the subsequent contracts entered into with MCAP for the delivery of that program, provided that these documents shall be provided to the clerk of the committee within three weeks of the adoption of this motion;

(m) an order of the committee do issue for all memoranda, e-mails, documents, notes or other records, including Cabinet papers, in the care, custody or control of the government or of the Honourable Bill Morneau, related to Rob Silver’s lobbying or other representations on behalf of MCAP and amendments to the Income Tax Act pertaining to the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy, provided that these documents shall be provided to the clerk of the committee within three weeks of the adoption of this motion;

(n) an order of the committee do issue to each member of the Cabinet, including the Prime Minister, and to the Honourable Bill Morneau requiring that they prepare and make a return to the clerk of the committee, within 10 days of the adoption of this motion, (i) indicating the date and summary of every communication they, a member of their ministerial exempt staff, or a volunteer in their ministerial office had since January 1, 2020, with Rob Silver, and (ii) providing all records of the communications referred to in subparagraph (i); and

(o) all documents and returns provided to the clerk of the committee under this Order shall be published on the committee’s website as soon as practical upon receipt.

Madam Chair, we have taken the opportunity and we have sent this to all of the other members' whips. That will be in both official languages. These are the things that were outstanding after the prorogation and things that we are just calling back on so that we can look at, as I indicated, the prorogation study that must come after and some of the Standing Orders that have been changed back in 2017-18 by this government. We're just starting to ask for these documents to prepare ourselves for when we're going to have this discussion.

Thank you. I'll pass the floor on.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'm going to take back what I said about the meals. I think we're going to need the meals, because we're going to be here for a while.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

That was long. I got an email simultaneously in the middle of some of what was just said. Because a lot was said there, I wanted to know, Mrs. Vecchio, if you could help me better understand how this motion or this study request is within the PROC mandate. Clarify that for me a little, if you could.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Among the things we're looking at is that one of the Standing Orders that were changed, of course, back in the 42nd Parliament, was the fact of prorogation. I think, like many Canadians, that when this government prorogued Parliament, just last month, as everybody was coming into the fold of everything that was happening with the scandal, we recognized that the government kind of just stopped on a certain date. We also know that there are certain documents that were going to be sent in and that were expected one day after, including some of the people who were supposed to be coming to either the ethics committee or to the finance committee.

We recognize that, through this prorogation and what ended up happening by worrying more about the skin in the game of the Prime Minister, we forgot about Canadians and forgot about the fact that there are so many things going on, like the fact that we're trying to pull through legislation on Bill C-2 and Bill C-4. We want to look at this to see why there was prorogation at a time when it was so imperative to make sure that we're actually helping Canadians during this pandemic. That is one of the things I'm looking at. At the procedure and House affairs committee, our job is to make sure that all things are kept accountable, putting this all on the floor, as the grandfather of the committees for the House of Commons. That is why I think it is our duty to make sure that...what this prorogation did and the impact on all of the committee work that was done.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Mrs. Vecchio.

We do have a speakers list started on this request.

Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I was going to propose that we undertake a different study, something on virtual voting, but I think I'll take myself off the speakers list for now and I'll let my other colleagues go forward.

I still don't see how this is relevant for PROC. Given Mrs. Vecchio's comments, I would really just ask for clarification. This seems relevant to other committees, perhaps, but certainly not to this one, in my view.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Do you want me to answer that question now or after?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Just a moment.

I, too, was going to go through a list of things we could be thinking about as this committee starts, but this is what has been put forth. I don't know if we'll get around to.... I'll try to better understand the procedure on notice requirement for this at this point, but we can definitely discuss it. We do have time until 5:30 and seeing as there is a list growing, I'll just get to that.

Mrs. Vecchio, do you want to respond to that, or do you want to take a few...? I have a feeling there are going to be a couple of questions.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I fully understand where you're coming from, Mr. Turnbull, but part of the job of the procedure and House affairs committee is to be that governing body of all of the other committees, looking to see what's going forward.

Part of our job is also, under the Standing Orders, to look at the reason for prorogation. We should be expecting the government to have that response within 20 sitting days of the session's beginning, so we're already into this. All we're asking for are the documents that support the reason for prorogation and that is the request we have made today.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay, that's perfect.

Mr. Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

This is with all due respect to Mrs. Vecchio's recent comments.

You're assuming that prorogation is about the WE issue. That's an assumption you're making in order to justify the rest of it. I think it's quite ironic that here we are, talking about what's important to Canadians, and somehow this is the issue that's top of mind, when Ontario recorded today the highest number of new COVID infections reported in a single day since this outbreak started being monitored. Somehow the opposition, at least the official opposition at this point, thinks that this is top of mind for Canadians.

You know, I understand and respect the role of the opposition. I know what they want to do here. I would probably be doing the same thing, if I were in their position, in terms of trying to get answers to what they see as very important questions. However, along the lines of what Mr. Turnbull said, I can't understand how this particular motion falls before this committee. Yes, a number of committees effectively came to a close when the prorogation started. Those committees can re-request that information again very easily. It doesn't have to go through this committee. It certainly doesn't have to come back to this committee.

More importantly, as a matter of procedure, I understand that the motion was distributed to us just as it was being read out by Mrs. Vecchio. I got the email notification at the same time. Well done; it was extremely well planned. The problem here is that you're springing this on a committee.

You were also reading it really fast, Mrs. Vecchio. I mean, I was trying to listen to what you were saying as you were reading it. I recognize the fact that you have provided it to us, but there is such an incredibly huge amount of detail in here that I, for one, cannot vote on this now without at least having had the opportunity to go through it.

I wish I could be spending my time on other things, such as talking about what Canadians really want right now. What they want is security. They want to be alleviated of anxiety. They want to understand and to know that their government and their Parliament are here for them to take care of them right now. In my humble opinion, this is not top of mind for them. Yes, there are questions that the opposition deserves to get answers to, and in due course that can happen.

Madam Chair, I need more time to look at this. I am certainly not in a position to vote on this right now, when we have literally 14 minutes before this meeting is scheduled to come to an end. There is a ton of information here. I was going to ask Mrs. Vecchio if she could read it to us again, but much more slowly so that we could hear it with some clarity.

You can put me on the list to speak again later, if necessary, because I need more time before I can vote on this. Certainly, number one, I would like to read it thoroughly, understand it all thoroughly and caucus with my colleagues properly to discuss it with them to see if we want to have an amendment on one part or another. I know that Mrs. Vecchio has been around Parliament for a while. She understands the rules and has been involved in a lot of committees. Certainly, although this is committee business and she is entirely entitled to do so, you don't spring a motion like this on a committee just on the fly like this and expect everybody to vote on it—unless, of course, you've preplanned this, and it was planned very well with the way the email went out.

In any event, I'll put my hand up again if I feel the need to speak to it more. I'd be curious and interested to hear what other people have to say.

I'll leave it at that for now, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

We have Mr. Doherty and then Mr. Tucker.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

The reason is right at the top of this motion: “That, in anticipation of the committee receiving an Order of reference, pursuant to Standing Order 32(7), no later than the 20th sitting day of the present Session, the committee shall consider the document outlining the government’s reasons for the latest prorogation and, in preparation for that study”.

We talked about being efficient in this committee, and requesting the information in advance would help. I will challenge my friend Mr. Gerretsen on the fact that he hasn't had the time to review this motion in advance. We have just passed three motions without the opportunity to really review.

Again I go back to Standing Order 32(7), which states:

Not later than 20 sitting days after the beginning of the second or subsequent session of the Parliament, a minister of the Crown shall lay upon the table a document outlining the reasons for the latest prorogation. This document shall be deemed referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs immediately after it is presented in the House.

I would also mention that there is no consent to adjourn at 5:30. Nobody agreed to that at the outset. Yes, there are votes that will be taking place later on in the evening, but I—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Point of order.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Madam Chair, I move that the—