Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 19th, 2020

[Stéphane Perrault]

One observation certainly is that, for example, the voters in B.C., who experienced mail-in ballots, may not all return to a traditional in-person voting. Even if in that jurisdiction, for example, we were to have a federal election post-pandemic, I would expect to see increased use of mail-in ballots in B.C. because there were so many people who did that.

It's difficult to predict exactly how this will play out. Certainly after the pandemic we will dispose of our protective equipment, and some of it can be put back into the cycle and we can recover some of that money through Procurement Canada and they'll put it back into the distribution cycle. Others may become obsolete or the value may go down. Things will evolve and we'll have to adjust. I must say it's a bit difficult to predict how that will evolve.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

If some of your observations prove to be correct, Mr. Perrault, that the voter turnout, whether it be through mail-in ballot or on-site voting, actually increases because Canadians become more accustomed to participating in a general election, I think obviously that would be good thing.

We've seen voter turnout—and you and I have discussed this before—continuously decline over the last several elections. Anything that can be done, perhaps, to increase the voter turnout would be welcomed, I'm sure, by everyone in this country. However, should there be increased turnout, Mr. Perrault, what impact do you think that would have on your budgets going forward?

Do you see that there will be a day, perhaps in the next budgetary cycle, that you would be requesting more money for election preparedness, or would there be a decline to take you back to nominal figures and nominal budgets of years past?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I don't see the ebb and flow of participation as having a major impact on the cost of delivering an election. We always have to assume that there will be a large number of electors, much more than actually do turn out. For example, the estimate of the number of ballots, the number of electors at a polling site on a particular poll, the number of workers and sites, are all done taking into account to a certain degree an inflated participation because we can't assume people will not show up to vote.

I don't think this will have a significant impact on the financial aspects of preparing and delivering an election.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Mr. Perrault.

Thank you, Mr. Lukiwski.

Mr. Gerretsen, you have five minutes.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Perrault, thank you very much for joining us. I apologize for the comment I made in jest earlier. I, of course, know that you have no idea when an election will be and you were speaking hypothetically.

I was actually going to ask you about the tweet that had come out from Elections Canada a few days ago in response to the Rebel News outlet's claims of Canada using the Dominion Voting Systems. I know that you explained that you thought it was necessary to correct the information, but I'm just curious if you can expand on why you thought it was necessary for Elections Canada to correct this disinformation and prevent it from being spread online.

[Stéphane Perrault]

In hindsight, we can debate whether it was the right thing to do or not. Certainly there was a very high level of confusion and misconception about the federal process and people were using that in such a way and in volumes that we felt were undermining the confidence in the election. One of our principles is that we want to be an authoritative source of information about the election, and if there's a significant amount of misinformation, then naturally we want to correct that.

Now unfortunately, that tweet was used—and I would say misused—to imply, and that was not our intent, that technology—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Okay, that's great. Thank you.

Speaking of tweets from Elections Canada, you also tweeted a couple days ago about about the mail-in voting system and you said that, to keep the vote by mail secure, eligible Canadian electors must apply to vote and then provide documents showing their identity. Then after you validate them, the information will be accepted.

I've been asking a lot of witnesses this question. Do you have any reason to believe that mail-in voting contributes to any more fraudulent voting activities than voting in person?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I'm not aware of any evidence that would support that concern.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Perfect.

I'll switch gears a little bit. In one of the first questioner's answers you said something to the effect that you wanted people to come if they felt safe to vote in person. You're basically saying you want to create the environment, and if people feel safe, you want them to come in person, but otherwise they could look to mail-in voting or something like that.

I'm concerned about the comment because I think it goes against what some health organizations are saying during the pandemic. For example, Ontario is about to go back into lockdown—at least it's being reported—and the word that's being given in Ontario is to not go out unless you absolutely have to, which is a little bit different from, come if you feel safe.

I wonder if you can clarify your position on that? I'm assuming that ultimately you would encourage people to take the advice of the health officials. Is that correct?

[Stéphane Perrault]

You just stole my punch there.

Canadians should—and we do—follow the advice of public health authorities. What I meant to say is that we want to provide a voting environment that meets those recommendations, and we want people to know that our voting environment will meet those recommendations.

The pandemic situation will evolve, and whether there is a lockdown and the extent to which people are advised to not go out will depend on the circumstances and region. We want people to know that we will have put in place measures aligned with public health guidelines so that they don't have to vote by—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

If those public guidelines are to the effect of “don't go out unless you absolutely have to“ and mail-in voting is one of the options that you have, it could be argued that you don't have to go out.

Getting back to Mr. Doherty and Mr. Tochor's questions about what can be done, I know that you said you don't think anything can be done between now and the spring, but what if it's between now and the spring of 2022?

Based on the information that's been given by chief electoral officers in provinces, they've really been saying that they wish their mail-in voting system had been more streamlined, easier to use and easier to access. Are you looking toward being able to do that so that people really understand and can utilize the system?

[Stéphane Perrault]

My priority is twofold. First of all, we're currently building an online application system for all Canadians to apply online for a kit. This does not exist at the moment. It exists for certain categories, so we're improving that.

Online application does involve the uploading of documents, and not all Canadians can do that. There have to be other ways of voting.

My priority in terms of simplifying is to make sure that confined electors, in particular people in long-term care facilities, are able to vote in a simpler way than is the case right now. I am concerned about the complexity for these electors. I'm concerned that it's unduly complex. We need to look to make it easier for them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Mr. Perrault.

Next we have Mr. Therrien for two and a half minutes.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Perrault, I would like to put a question to you about attendants in long-term care institutions. Last time you came to see us, you told us that, in case of a pandemic, you would use those attendants to oversee the conduct of the vote. That is what I understood, and I felt that made sense, as well.

Is that right?

[Stéphane Perrault]

To the extent possible, yes.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

People will have to undergo training. How will that work? Will they receive extra wages from Elections Canada? Will that lead to additional costs?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I will answer you by bringing up the most important considerations.

There won't be a single way to operate because there won't be a single appropriate way for all long-term care centres. That's key. In some cases, adapted voting procedures by mail will be used. In other cases, adapted mobile voting procedures will be used. There may not be mobility, but the same instruments will be used. What is more, the hours will be flexible. We will need to take a number of variables into account.

We will first have to present a range of more flexible and simpler options. Then, at the local level, we will have to communicate with long-term care centres to find out what their preferences are. We have started to do so, and we will do it more and more after Christmas. We will also have to come back to this during the election, since the situation involving staff and seniors will have evolved.

So, a great deal of flexibility will be needed. However, I cannot tell you how much it may cost.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Okay.

So there may be additional costs.

However, you are confident in this measure and you think you will be able to manage various situations with a fairly limited budget.

[Stéphane Perrault]

My concern is not financial in nature. I don't think those factors will have a major financial impact.

What I am concerned about is whether those people will have an opportunity to exercise their right to vote.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

I saw in the document that changes to rates and fees will be announced.

Can you elaborate on that?

[Stéphane Perrault]

We have prepared a submission for the Treasury Board, but it has not yet been considered. I hope it will be as soon as possible, as this must be coded into the pay systems. We do not play with the pay systems during an election.

The faster we get the green light from the Treasury Board, the better we will be doing.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Perrault.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you. That's all the time we have.

Mr. Blaikie is next.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much. I'm coming to committee today from Manitoba. As Mr. Doherty mentioned, there are many places in the country—Manitoba stands out among them, unfortunately—that are really under siege when it comes to COVID-19 right now. It's been getting out of control, frankly, and our medical system is getting to the limit of its capacity. We've all been advised not to go out if we don't have to, as Mr. Gerretsen was saying.

I'm just wondering if, as some provinces begin to lock down quite seriously again, you've been reaching out to provincial health officials to start talking to them about what kind of advice they might be giving you now if there were an election under way, so that you can get a better sense of what public health orders might be in place and how they might affect an election if the kinds of severe restrictions we're seeing now were in place for a federal election.

[Stéphane Perrault]

It's a very good point. Health is fundamentally a local matter. There's a provincial-federal working group of senior health officials from agencies, and Monsieur Roussel has been engaging them. We have a working group in place to establish the connections, not just provincially but also locally. We find it's critical that, ahead of the election, returning officers know exactly who they need to engage locally, and the local authorities understand what will be happening during an election and what kind of support they can provide to returning officers.

There's quite an extensive network of connections to be implemented as we prepare for this election. I mentioned first nations. That's a very vast and diverse group.