Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 19th, 2020

[Stéphane Perrault]

Can I comment on that?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Please go ahead. Don't take too much of my time, but go ahead.

[Stéphane Perrault]

I was hoping to get a question on that, because I welcome the opportunity to clarify some points there.

We were responding to very, very high levels of questions, confusion and misinformation about how federal elections work. The goal of our communications team was simply to put out the facts and not to make any comments on tabulation technology or any particular service provider.

I do want to add that there are some very good reasons for election management bodies to use various types of technology in support of election services, including, but not necessarily, tabulation. In Canada a number of provinces...and we have people here from New Brunswick and Ontario. A number of provinces, including those two, have been leading the way in this area, and frankly quite successfully. We are working with them and learning from them. At Elections Canada we have been exploring, and we will continue to explore the use of technology, not necessarily tabulation but the use of technology to improve electoral services.

I do believe that the future of elections will involve some technology and that this can be done in a safe and secure way. I find it unfortunate that the impression is given that technology is not secure or cannot be secure.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

No, I think I understood, and most of us understood, that the reason Elections Canada posted that was that you were responding to questions about the methods. I can tell you that Canadians are watching what's happening down south and are reflecting on how grateful we are to have a reliable federal agency that conducts our elections.

I'll move on to my questions. Have you finished tabulating the costs you incurred for the by-elections that happened in October? How much more do you think you spent on those by-elections?

[Stéphane Perrault]

We have not quite finished. Roughly, it was about $3 million, which is certainly more than an average by-election, but these were Toronto by-elections, so some of the expenses there relate to the fact that media-buy in Toronto is more expensive and that rates for rental are a lot more expensive. Normally, a by-election is on average around just under $1 million. This is significantly more.

Some of the cost related to that was certainly tied to the protective measures we put in place. On the other hand, we did have fewer polling locations than we would normally have in a general election. Certainly one area of concern for me from those by-elections is the challenge in finding polling places. That's one of the reasons we're recommending Saturday and Sunday voting, and we saw that in Toronto.

In terms of the cost, when we have all those marked down we will be reporting on that, but I can say it's around $3 million.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

In your last appearance you talked about the collection of signatures that candidates need to become a certified candidate. You talked about considering other ways, because right now going around to voters and asking for their signatures might not be ideal under the circumstance.

Are you considering an online way for electors to sign this document?

[Stéphane Perrault]

We are looking at different options right now. I can tell you that there are challenges with the legal requirement for a witness, and that makes the online submission process a very cumbersome one.

I am looking at adapting the rules, and again this is a good example. My power to adapt the rules does not include adapting for reasons of security. It's adapting for voting or for counting of the ballots. This is a lesson from this by-election. If I need to adapt, for example, to the signature process for security reasons, then this cannot be done. In my recommendations report, I have a recommendation to have a bit of a broader power to adapt, but I will be looking at ways to have an online submission. That may require tweaking some of the rules.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

By the way, you may want to look at the House of Commons. For a couple of years now we've been accepting e-petitions where citizens can submit their signature online.

The reason I'm asking this question is that as we expect mail-in ballots to increase—or what we call a special ballot—the earlier we have candidates firmed up, the better it is, so that we have their names printed on the ballot. If you start sending ballots way too early, where names of the candidates are not printed and the voters are expected to write in the name, that may create another form of confusion. I was hoping, because of this situation or scenario, there's a way for us to require that candidates are certified earlier so that the mail-in ballots can have the names on them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you. That's all the time we have.

I guess you can take that as maybe more of a comment or a suggestion at this point. We'll maybe get a response to it later on.

I was going to say, and I won't obviously take this out of the time, that the tabulator issue and online voting systems were looked at by the electoral reform committee and the procedure committee in past Parliaments. Obviously, everyone has probably read and heard that online is not considered to be completely secure at this point. In the few countries that have done it, there have been some issues.

Previously we did have Mr. Perrault as our deputy at that time. Tabulators are being used in Ontario and smaller jurisdictions so that we can properly assess the effectiveness. Just like he said, perhaps we may move to them one day, but at this point I don't think we foresee our going in that direction.

It was interesting that the President mentioned that, because the U.S. has been using tabulators for a very long time, not just in this election. I don't know what it had to do with tabulators in his election per se. I think it was more about whether they desired to count the ballots or not. Anyway, it was interesting to see that tweet.

[Stéphane Perrault]

Madam Chair, can I add a few words to that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Yes.

[Stéphane Perrault]

Thank you very much.

No, we're not looking at tabulation, but we are looking down the road at the very least of having a solution: to scan VIC cards to strike from the list. You can process voters much more efficiently this way.

More importantly, we can allow voters to vote anywhere in polling stations, for example, for official languages reasons. If you have one table that's bilingual, anybody who needs servicing in that minority language could go to that table. Right now, you are confined as a voter to your table where your name is on a particular list. There's lots of flexibility with very simple technology. It doesn't need to involve tabulation, although there's nothing inherently wrong with tabulation, but technology can enhance the service considerably.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

That's interesting. That makes a lot of sense.

Mr. Therrien, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Perrault, you talked earlier about La Prairie, the riding I represent. That resonated with me because I was wondering why Kahnawake did not have a polling station on its territory.

I would like you to use 30 seconds or a minute to tell me about the history of this situation. I would like to know it because, as you know, it is of personal interest to me.

[Stéphane Perrault]

I don't know the details of the history. What I do know is that, at every election, we addressed the community to try to establish a polling site. As I said before, that must be done very respectfully. We understand why, for historic reasons, certain communities prefer not to have polling sites.

During the last election, we communicated with community leaders. We were very hopeful: for the first time, there was openness, initially. However, for reasons I am not exactly familiar with, they, within the community and at the last minute, decided not to have a polling site. So people voted in Sainte-Catherine. Am I wrong?

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

That's right, in Sainte-Catherine.

[Stéphane Perrault]

So that's a bit of history, and I don't have much detail on it.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

So two voting stations are reserved for the Kahnawake community at the Sainte-Catherine polling station, right next door. That was intriguing to me. Thank you for clarifying.

I will put a question to you, and I hope I won't look too stupid.

I wanted to know how that works in minority situations.

You have an enhanced budget, since we have a minority government. So the budget has increased by $99 million, and it includes money set aside for the fight against COVID-19.

Did I understand correctly?

[Stéphane Perrault]

That budget is actually a forecast because, as I said, I have a standing authority to draw money from the consolidated revenue fund of Canada. I report on that to this committee and, should you have questions, I would be happy to answer.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Okay.

I will ask another question.

Let's imagine that an election was to be held in February. I would like to know what mechanism would enable you to seek out money that is not budgeted, but that you could in all likelihood obtain.

What mechanism gives you access to that money you need?

[Stéphane Perrault]

Provisions of the Canada Election Act provide direct legal authority to draw from the consolidated revenue fund of Canada to ensure the holding and preparation of an election.

Budget cycles lead to budget legislation, which provides annual appropriations. However, certain agencies—not very many—sometimes benefit from a permanent authority under the law, such as employment insurance. So Parliament voted on it once and could amend it. In our case, we are talking about a very useful authority for the reasons you mentioned.

We make adjustments based on expenditures and events that occur.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

I have one last short question. I hope the chair will be nice to me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Mr. Therrien.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

We could cut the next one, couldn't we?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

We're very over time. I was trying to be kind so that you got your response.