Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 19th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 11 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

I'd like to start the meeting by providing you with some information following the motion that was adopted in the House on Wednesday, September 23, 2020. The committee is sitting in a hybrid format, meaning that all members can participate either virtually or person. The witnesses, however, must appear virtually.

The committees' power to sit is limited by the priority use of House resources, and all questions during committee must be decided by a recorded vote, unless the committee disposes of it with unanimous consent or on division.

Finally, the committee may deliberate in camera, provided that it takes into account the potential risks of participants participating remotely.

Today's proceedings are being made available via the House of Commons website. This is a reminder that only the person speaking is being webcast and not the entirety of the committee. Because we do work past the lunch hour, I understand that we don't even take the breaks we used to sometimes when we were all physically present, so feel free if you need to take a quick water or food break. I know sometimes that's important, depending on different health conditions as well. Don't feel obligated to be on at all times when the camera's not on you.

Members and witnesses may speak, as you know, in the official language of their choice and interpretation services are available for this meeting. However, I want to emphasize—as I have stated before—that it is mandatory to wear a headset with a boom mike. These headsets have been provided by the House of Commons. If you're missing a headset, they are very quick at getting you another headset.

I understand that the headset does not plug into phones or iPads. I can understand maybe having to do that in an emergency situation, but please try your best to use the provided headset. Also, I believe an adapter can be sent over. I don't know if that is exactly the best choice, though.

Try to use your desktop or the Surface Pro that you might have, because the interpreters are having problems. I'm not just saying this today because I feel like filling the time. I am saying it because there have been real concerns. They will refuse to interpret if you are not wearing a mike and they cannot hear you appropriately.

Our official languages, and being able to speak in both official languages, are very important. Our committee would not be able to proceed without the work of the interpreters, so let's please try to do our best to make sure we follow their guidelines and their requests, because this does make it a lot easier for them.

I want to remind you to, as always, unmute yourselves before speaking. It's not being done for you. Unmute yourselves and then put yourselves back on mute afterward so that there are no interruptions.

If any technical problems arise, please let the chair or the clerk know immediately, because we may need to suspend to ensure that everyone can participate fully.

Speak slowly and clearly.

I think that is about it, so we can start.

Today we have—

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Madam Chair, on the point about interpretation, if I could briefly interrupt, I believe the whips' offices of the respective parties have access to information about the injury rates among our interpreters. I'm wondering if you might be able to obtain that information and table it for the committee, because members might find it informative.

It might be a nice way to encourage all members to make sure they are using a proper headset. The numbers are actually quite impressive in a bad way, when you see them laid out on paper.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Absolutely. Even when we had the association appear before us as a witness previously in the virtual House of Commons study, that testimony was surprising. I don't think a lot of us realized the stress and the injuries that can be caused to those providing these services.

I will ask for that information. Thank you, Mr. Blaikie, for letting me know that is available.

I think that would be encouraging to members. I know sometimes we think it sounds okay to us and therefore it shouldn't be a problem, but we should definitely be following the guidelines they have set out for us when possible. I understand emergencies do occur, but those are exceptional circumstances. It shouldn't become a routine practice to not use the headset.

Let's start. On the main estimates today, we have Monsieur Perrault back before our committee. He is from Elections Canada, the Chief Electoral Officer.

Thank you so much, Monsieur Perrault, for being back again.

We have Michel Roussel, deputy chief electoral officer for electoral events and innovation, and we have Marc Limoges, chief financial officer.

We will start with opening remarks. I believe the opening remarks are from Monsieur Perrault.

Monsieur Perrault, you have five minutes. Thank you for providing the remarks in advance.

[Stéphane Perrault, Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada]

Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity to present to the committee Elections Canada's 2020-2021 main estimates today.

I will also take this opportunity to briefly reflect on the conduct of the October 26 by-elections and the need to swiftly pass targeted legislative change to deliver a general election in these very challenging pandemic circumstances.

Elections Canada is funded under two distinct of authorities: an annual appropriation and a standing statutory authority.

Today, the committee will vote on the annual appropriation, which amounts to $48.2 million and represents the salaries of some 530 indeterminate positions.

The agency also has a standing statutory authority to draw directly from the consolidated revenue fund for all expenses related to its mandate, other than the salaries of indeterminate staff.

This funding model allows Elections Canada to access the funds required to plan and deliver elections, which, as we know, may occur at any time, and ensures its independence. Planned spending under the statutory authority is reported for transparency and accountability.

The statutory appropriation for the fiscal year 2020-2021, as reported in the main estimates, totalled $85.5 million. However, the main estimates for 2020-2021 were submitted before the end of the 2019 general election.

As a result, they do not reflect the costs associated with remaining ready to deliver a general election in a minority government context. Nor do they reflect the additional costs resulting from required measures for the pandemic.

Being ready to administer an election is at the core of Elections Canada's mandate. In the situation of a minority government, maintaining a constant state of readiness involves additional costs. These costs include, for example, preparing and deploying IT hardware to regional warehouses and replenishing electoral supplies, as well as hiring and training a contingent of temporary personnel.

For the current fiscal year we have incurred to date additional expenses totalling $99 million from the statutory appropriation in order to be prepared to deliver an election at any time in this pandemic context. Of this, $52 million relates directly to the pandemic, including the purchase of protective equipment such as masks and hand sanitizer, improvements to vote-by-mail capacity, a new voter information campaign on the safety measures and a more extensive campaign to recruit election workers.

The pandemic has also affected our ongoing activities. Most Elections Canada staff now work from home. To support this transition to telework, we have invested in tablets and other equipment. While not without challenges, this arrangement is working well. We are equipped to deliver the next election with most, if not all, staff working remotely, if that is required.

Since I appeared last before this committee, Elections Canada has administered by-elections in Toronto Centre and York Centre. These are two regions with high rates of COVID-19. While the by-elections were delivered successfully, they also demonstrated the challenges presented by the pandemic, including the need for coordination with three public health authorities: the City of Toronto, the Province of Ontario and the federal government.

A general election during a pandemic will be even more complex in this regard and will require engaging with health authorities at the local, provincial or territorial, and federal levels, as well as with over 600 first nations reserves, some of which have their own COVID-19 protocols.

The experience of the recent by-elections only strengthens my conviction that the conduct of a federal election during a pandemic requires an ability to adapt to changing circumstances. This is why I can only reiterate the importance of the recommendations that I presented earlier this fall, and the need to act on these recommendations so that we are able to implement them in a timely manner.

Madam Chair, I am happy to work with the committee, and of course answer any questions the members will undoubtedly have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Mr. Perrault.

I have definitely informed the committee as well that we need to get working and take care of those recommendations so that we can get you working on making sure that you can provide a safe and secure election.

We will start the first round of questions with Ms. Vecchio.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thank you very much.

Once again, thank you so much for returning to our committee. It seems like months and months ago, because with COVID everything is always full tilt ahead.

I want to start off with a very simple question. I know a lot of times with registrations a lot of that information comes from sources such as Canada Revenue Agency. Have there been any issues with getting that information downloaded from different agencies to Elections Canada for the registration of voters?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I am not aware—and Mr. Roussel can jump in if he is aware—of any situations where there have been difficulties with the flow of data with our partners. We have some 40 data partners that we interact with, and we haven't had any difficulties that I can report to the committee.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Those are some of the things that I really want to talk about because I was just thinking of specific things with COVID. Due to COVID, we've allowed Canadians to complete their taxes at different times. We know that the information is downloaded from CRA to Elections Canada. I was just wondering how the flow of information is when there has been a change to deadlines and a change to many things that are happening right now.

Could you check to see if there have been any changes?

What are some of the other organizations that you currently get this registration information from for this data bank in terms of the registration list?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I don't have the full list in front of me, but I would be happy to provide that. Certainly we get a lot of information, for example, from the motor vehicle bureaus of the provinces. This is in all provinces except one. We have motor vehicle data, so that is quite useful.

We exchange data with provincial electoral management bodies. It's a two-way exchange, so we help each other in keeping the registries up to date. There are variations depending on the province, but we do interact with all EMBs.

I will perhaps let Mr. Roussel jump in because he knows much more about some of the other partners that we have.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

That would be great. As he does jump in, I just want to look at that, because with regard to motor vehicle agencies and places like that, I'll be honest, I'm driving with an old sticker. Our place is still not open yet, and we've had some delays.

I'm thinking about the COVID restrictions with regard to getting plates and different things like that. How are you working with these agencies to ensure that the registration is correct and that notifications, such as death or moving notifications, are all up to date?

[Stéphane Perrault]

Before Michel Roussel speaks, I'll just say that of course one of the virtues of having online registration during the election, or in the lead-up to the election when it's coming, is that we do push voters to go online and verify the accuracy of their information and keep it up to date. That's an important tool.

Michel Roussel, go ahead.

[Michel Roussel, Deputy Chief Electoral Officer, Electoral Events and Innovation, Elections Canada]

Thank you.

In addition to what was mentioned by the Chief Electoral Officer, we also have partnership with provinces' vital statistics so that deceased electors can be taken off the voters list. We also have partnership with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada for the purpose of adding new citizens and also validating that people are actually Canadian citizens. These are regular partnerships and these are ongoing.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Awesome.

I want to ask about vital statistics. That is such an important part when it comes to deaths. How often is that information downloaded? Is it every 30 days, every six months...? Can you give me some information on that, if you don't mind?

[Michel Roussel]

I could get clarification on the pace, but it's more on a quarterly basis with vital statistics.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Okay. I just think that's really important stuff. I think making sure we have accurate lists is one of the most important things coming from the Elections Canada side. I do recognize that you can do it on registration, that you can go online, but sometimes those lists are.... I've seen people on them who unfortunately have been deceased for multiple years. I'll tell you that, as a candidate calling those homes, it's very embarrassing when you find out that poor Fred has not been with us for 10 years, yet he's still on an election list. If we could look into that, I would really appreciate it.

This will probably go back to you, Mr. Perrault. I see on the table the amount of $3,230,000 for electoral boundaries. I'm looking at the readjustments of the boundaries for 2020-21. Has any work started on that yet?

[Stéphane Perrault]

Work is only beginning. We are starting to put together a team to plan the work, but there has been limited work on that project so far.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

With the allocated amount of over $3 million, I assume you're hoping that some of that will then be rolled over into the next year's budget, that we should not actually be spending over $3 million on a project right now. Where are you sitting with that?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I would expect that is the case: correct.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Okay. That's good to know.

During a minority government and when we recognize that so many people are working from home right now, what are some of the additional costs. other than computers and tablets? What other things are we helping with so that people can get this work done in those remote areas, such as Elgin—Middlesex—London, to ensure that we are ready? What else are we putting into work?

That's for Mr. Perrault.

[Stéphane Perrault]

I think we have to distinguish between the work that takes place at headquarters.... We've equipped all of our staff to be able to work effectively from home. As I indicated, I think that is working generally very well.

We also have to equip returning officers. Returning officers are working from their homes all the time. In a way, that's normal for them. In a minority context, what we do is provide them with tasks—for example, to look in the area for potential polling places or to start engaging with local care facilities or indigenous communities. We have a schedule of tasks that they do, but they are working remotely in an ongoing way normally, so for them it is not that much of a change. What's important is that they have guidelines from health authorities and understand what they need to do to remain safe at all times.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Excellent. Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Mr. Turnbull, you have six minutes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thanks, Mr. Perrault, for coming back. It's always great to see you. I know you have a busy schedule and lots of important work to do, so we appreciate your being here.

My questions are related to expenses or the estimates. To recap your opening remarks, you said that the statutory appropriation was calculated prior to the current context. In other words, you couldn't have predicted the pandemic and the added costs of even operating within a minority context at that time. Is that right?

[Stéphane Perrault]

That's correct. One of the reasons we have a statutory appropriation, which is an ongoing authority, is the unpredictable nature, to a certain degree, of the electoral cycle, whether it's by-elections or general elections in a minority, and in this case, of course, the pandemic. It is a very significant advantage to be able to draw on this over and above anything we may have planned, report on it and, of course, account for it. That's how we use it.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I appreciate that. Thanks. I just wanted to clarify it and make that clear.

It's $99 million that would be the additional expenses that are being proposed or that you're estimating. Is that correct?