Evidence of meeting #11 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pandemic.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Thank you very much.
Mr. Perrault, I want to come back to a question we addressed a bit with you the last time you were before the committee. It is the question of telephone voting.
When we heard from folks in the disability community, particularly the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, there was a lot of enthusiasm about the possibility of phone voting. I know it's something you weren't looking at in your interim report and recommendations.
I wonder if you could speak again to whether that was a principled objection on the part of Elections Canada or it was a logistical objection, either because the legislative framework right now doesn't permit it or because the infrastructure isn't there. Could you give your thoughts about telephone voting in general, and whether that's on the medium-term or long-term agenda for Elections Canada?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Absolutely.
We do not have, in our legal framework, provisions for telephone voting. They exist in British Columbia, though, so they were able to use that.
There's a valid question as to whether I could adapt legislation in the pandemic to deal with unique circumstances. We have to look at that.
There are other options as well that we need to look at. For example, homebound voters who cannot fill a ballot and cannot even fill an application can have somebody assist in their homes. In a COVID situation, that's not ideal, but could we use a ZOOM interchange? I know in seniors homes, for example, there's often ZOOM capabilities. They've begun to use that to link families with seniors.
We have to look at those options and see how we do this. The key thing for me is how to make it safe and secure for the integrity of the vote.
Using the telephone raises a question of how you provide identification. Federally, every time we vote we rely on identification documents. If you vote by phone, you're straying more significantly from the framework because it would require some form of identification—
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Could the framework we use for mail-in ballots be adapted for phone, if you applied and got a package, for instance, with some kind of unique identifier?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Yes, that could be applied, in which case you could provide photocopies of your documents, for example, or upload documents on the web. It could be done, but that's of little assistance. For me, the usefulness of phone-in ballots is at the tail end of the period, when, after day six, say, you're getting very close to polling day and it's too late to submit an application for a special ballot kit.
But you're right that there are windows of opportunity, and we are exploring this to see how much we can stray from the regulatory framework in the act right now to allow that. Then there are the logistics of planning for that in a nationwide election. Again, timing may be everything.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota
Thank you, Mr. Perrault.
Mr. Tochor, go ahead for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
Mr. Perrault, thank you again for coming to our committee.
I'm still on the procedural side of the mail-in ballots. We send them out and mailing them is prepaid. If they are put in the mail system, do they go to Ottawa and then back to the returning officer?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
No, not if you're voting from your district. If you're a local elector voting from your home and you're not away from your home, the mail will return to your local returning officer's office. That's one of the features for cutting down on some of the travel time in the process.
For a national election, having a centralized process would have added additional travel time.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
You could always drop off your ballots at the returning officer's actual office. Is that correct?
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
Is there a plan to have secure ballot drop-off boxes during the pandemic so that people don't have to interact with anybody and can put ballots in a special mailbox that would get collected and then given to a returning officer?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
We don't have a plan in place, but it's certainly on our list of things we are looking into for the next election, because it is much safer if we can have a drop box, for example, very close to the returning office and people can drive in or walk and drop in their ballots, especially if it's late in the cycle on polling day.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
That would be helpful. It would also be helpful for the budget because you don't pay for the mail if it doesn't get mailed. As a cost-saving measure, that would be one way of reducing some of the costs safely. Is that correct?
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
I would strongly encourage you to consider that a bit more, because I think it would be one way of not spending taxpayers' dollars on something we could do in a different way.
I'll go back to the tracing of mail-in ballots to create certainty that a voter's ballot at least got to a returning officer. I understand that Canada Post has difficulties with tracking the mail and how it's set up, but what if the voter could go on to a database and search their poll and an ID number to see if the package has arrived?
How tough would that be to set up, and is that something you're considering?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
We are looking at ways of informing the voters when their kits are issued. We'll have to come back to that. We're having these conversations.
The work we did this fall was just to get ready for a snap election. Now we're looking at all these kinds of issues in order to improve the service offering for a possible—I said “spring” before and I got into trouble—upcoming election.
Conservative
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
I trust you to have a fair election. I think we need to be very careful, given the experiences coming out of the States. It's a perception, not reality. It's to make sure that people perceive this election to be on the up and up. I know your office, and everyone who works within your office, is working on that. I would encourage you to....
This could also be after the fact. Political parties receive the strike list or the votes that have been cast. Is there anything in the act that would prevent you from releasing that list to the public after the election so that people can go back to find out if their ballots were actually counted?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I'd have to look into that. There may be, possibly.... The Privacy Act allows you to have access to your personal information.
I think there is...but I'd have to look into that.
Conservative
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I would say that it's a bit unfortunate at that point. I understand there's some satisfaction in confirming that your ballot made its way, but I think voters would ideally like a system so that, during the election, they're informed that in fact it has been delivered. That would be an ideal solution.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
Ideally it would be during but if it's after, it goes back to keeping that perception and the reality of every ballot being counted, every ballot getting in.
I think that would go a long way if, after the fact, we can release to the public who voted. It would be blacking out different information on addresses or anything private, but you could go down to even a poll number, first initial and last name. That would give assurances that those ballots that were put in the mail.... As much as we all trust Canada Post, it would be a second line of certification that those ballots are there.
Quickly—I have limited time—on the cost savings, you talked about there being roughly 500 employees at Elections Canada. What was it 10 years ago, roughly? Have we ramped up that much in the last 10 years?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I don't have the numbers in front of me. There has been an increase.
Some of those numbers.... The 500 number is indeterminate employees. It does not include terms or casuals. A lot of these fluctuate during an election period. The total number in the low end of the cycle is more around, I would say 800 staff, and it goes up from there. If you're talking bums in seats, so to speak, including contracts, it goes up significantly—almost double—during an election. There's quite a fluctuation.
In recent years, we've—
