Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2020

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Justin Vaive]

Madam Chair, we will do very quick sound checks for our next two witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay, we'll suspend for a couple of minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Welcome back. We're going to get started.

Can everyone please click on the right-hand side of their screens to ensure that they are in gallery view? With this view you should be able to see all of the participants in your grid view.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the new witnesses.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak you can click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Also, interpretation in this video conference will work much like it does in a regular committee setting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of the floor, or French or English.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking your mike should be on mute. The use of headsets is strongly encouraged. Thank you for using those headsets.

I'd like to now welcome our witnesses. From Canada Post, we have Louise Chayer. From the Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities, we have Mr. Raymond Orb, the president.

Welcome to both of you.

I've mentioned that we're looking at the possibility of how to run a safe election within the context of this pandemic.

Both of you have five minutes for an opening statement.

We will start with Ms. Chayer.

[Louise Chayer, General Manager, Customer Experience, Canada Post Corporation]

Thank you to the chair and to the committee members for inviting me to join you today.

My name is Louise Chayer, and I'm the general manager of customer experience at Canada Post.

I'd like to start by outlining our long-standing commitment to delivering major mailings and the consultative approach that we take to ensure successful delivery. At Canada Post we're proud to serve every corner of the country, and we understand the importance of connecting Canadians in urban centres, rural towns, remote communities and the Far North.

We deliver on our mandate each day with a large, sophisticated, national network and a team of incredible people who are dedicated to serving Canadians. When it comes to securely delivering large, national and regional mailings, we have extensive experience. It means that we can support important public initiatives such as the census, national and provincial elections and, most recently, Health Canada's COVID-19 awareness efforts.

In each instance we work closely with officials at all levels to conduct extensive advance planning. With a dedicated project team, we work with the shared goal of effectively and thoughtfully executing all the mailing requirements. We meet regularly with organizers to provide logistical support and advice, proactively monitor mailings from receipt to delivery and develop mechanisms to quickly address any potential issues. This approach has helped us to successfully support elections of all kinds for years while building great working relationships with election officials across the country.

This year alone we have supported provincial elections in New Brunswick, Saskatchewan and British Columbia, as well as numerous by-elections at the municipal, provincial, and federal level.

After the federal election that was held last fall, we received a letter from Stéphane Perrault, the Chief Electoral Officer. In it he recognized Canada Post's efforts in delivering 4,300 monotainers of election material and thousands of special ballot bags to run the election while at the same time ensuring that 27 million voter information cards and 15.4 million federal election guides were distributed to Canadians in a timely manner.

During every writ period, we're also proud to deliver a surge of personal mail and direct mail from candidates who are looking to quickly and effectively get their messages into the hands of the voters.

While there is often a surge of mail during any election period, I want to reassure the committee members that we are built to meet our responsibilities. With over 53,000 employees, Canada Post delivers close to eight billion pieces of mail and parcels to 16.5 million addresses across the country every year. Our network consists of 21 processing plants and 477 letter-carrier depots serving more than 22,000 urban, rural and mail service carrier routes. We have one of the largest fleets in Canada with over 13,000 vehicles. While much of the attention has shifted recently to the number of parcels that we process and deliver, we are also built to process and deliver a lot of mail.

Mail is processed on machines called multi-line optical character readers, or MLOCRs, as we call them. They're dedicated to sorting mail, and they do so at a very high rate of speed. We currently operate 150 MLOCRs located in 15 mail processing plants across the country that can each process on average 22,000 pieces of mail an hour. As you can see, we are able to support large mailings, and we're proud to do so.

I would like to close by saying that this year has been like no other. With COVID-19, our top priority from the beginning has been to ensure that we are putting the safety of our people first. To do so, we have closely followed the advice and guidance of the Public Health Agency of Canada throughout this period. We quickly and dramatically changed the way we work, the way we deliver, the way we operate our post offices and the way we clean our facilities right across the country.

We implemented physical distancing measures, and we ramped up the distribution of safety equipment and personal protective equipment to our people. Masks and face coverings are mandatory in all our facilities, including for customers visiting the post office. We've also implemented processes and contingencies to respond in the event of a positive or presumptive employee case.

These are just a few of the many measures we've put in place to keep employees and the people who we serve safe. Throughout it all, we have worked closely with our unions and bargaining agents at the national and local levels. By putting safety measures in place early and working regularly to improve them, we've been able to provide an essential service to Canadians throughout a very challenging year.

In summary, we have a long and established history of serving Canadians and supporting our democracy when called upon.

We're not just a delivery company. We are part of the national fabric, with a network built to serve all and a team of people proud to serve the many communities they call home.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to answering your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Mr. Orb, you have five minutes, please.

[Raymond Orb, President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My name is Ray Orb. I am the president of SARM. I was born and raised and live in a small community northeast of Regina with a population of 625 people.

I'd like to thank the standing committee today.

SARM represents all the 296 rural municipalities in the province and has been the voice of rural municipal government for over 100 years. Today, I'll share some perspectives with you.

First, I would like to say that it would be essential to communicate the reasons why a federal election is needed now, during a pandemic. To encourage rural voters to start to participate in the federal election during a pandemic, those in government must ensure the voting public understands why it has to happen now and why it is not better to wait until after a vaccine is available for COVID-19. Rural voters will be weighing the risks to their health and safety against the reason for a federal election when they are deciding whether to participate or not.

Holding an election at the right time in the calendar year is also key to attracting rural-based voters to cast their ballots. Canadian agriculture is at the very heart of rural Canada and plays a significant role in our daily lives, from employing family and neighbours to feeding the globe. This means avoiding an election date that coincides with key agriculture activities such as seeding and harvest. It's imperative to ensure rural voter turnout. Farmers are not thinking about elections when they are taking off their year's income in a month-long period.

In Saskatchewan, we just came through fall municipal and provincial elections amidst the pandemic and recognized some trends we thought would be helpful to share. Municipal elections also took place in other provinces this fall, making them good points of reference.

Advance voting for Saskatchewan's provincial election recognized historic increases. In 2016, over 110,000 people voted at advance polls. This year, it increased to 185,000, which is 67%. Ensuring that opportunities for advance polls are easily accessible and well-promoted is imperative. Offering voters advance polling stations in their immediate area with extended operating hours would likely prove beneficial to voter participation.

In the New Brunswick municipal election, advance polling was stretched over three days. This spread out the in-person voter population over the span of days. Promoting these alternative methods of voting more widely, well in advance of election day, along with reminders of how using these alternative methods can help reduce potential exposures to COVID-19 would be encouraging.

There was also an increase in the uptake of those mail-in ballots to vote in Saskatchewan's provincial election. A record 56,000 mail-in ballots were returned and counted this year. This is in comparison to the mere 4,000 mail-in ballots that were counted in 2016. Ensuring the method for distributing and receiving back mail-in ballots is fine-tuned and promoting this mail-in option to voters well in advance of election day would also encourage participation. Consideration should be given to allow adequate time for mail-in ballots to arrive and be counted prior to election day. The time it takes for ballots to arrive via regular mail slowed the ability for election officials to be officially announced, in some situations, until days after the general election.

To ensure the health and safety of voters, ensuring that polling stations are equipped with adequate hand sanitizer, masks, disposable pencils for marking ballots, proper barriers and easily identifiable marks on the floor or signs to indicate proper social distancing, etc., are important. It would also be important to ensure that these protective measures are well-communicated before advance polls and election day, so voters know they can feel safe when they choose to cast their vote in person.

In the Nova Scotia fall general elections, the province encouraged all municipalities to use telephone or Internet voting. Some municipalities decided to use solely electronic voting, while others made use of a combination of paper and electronic voting options. Opting for in-person voting meant renting more polling stations, hiring more election staff and spending more on adequate cleaning. For voters concerned about attending a polling station in person, they allowed voters to cast a ballot via proxy.

In closing, on behalf of the Saskatchewan's rural municipalities and agricultural producers, we thank the standing committee for the opportunity to lend our voice to this important conversation. We look forward to continued dialogue as we all work together to protect the interests and the health and safety of Canadians.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Mr. Orb.

To both of you, we appreciate your remarks.

We'll start our six-minute round of questioning with Mr. McCauley.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks very much, and thanks for allowing me to fill in today.

Ms. Chayer, I normally sit on the government operations committee where we have a lot of dealings with Canada Post, so it's nice to see you.

I wonder if you could give some of Canada Post's experiences in dealing with the B.C., Saskatchewan and New Brunswick elections with the mail-in process.

[Louise Chayer]

Certainly. That's a good question.

As you mentioned, we supported the New Brunswick, Saskatchewan and British Columbia elections.

On the New Brunswick side, it was smaller in scope, and things were handled without any issues in terms of the mail-in ballots.

Saskatchewan was a little larger in scope and we were able to support there without any issues as well.

In the B.C. election as well, there is a larger population, and for sure, a larger number of voter mail-in ballots. Again there were no issues in terms of return, getting the kits out and getting people to vote by mail and getting those votes back in time for the election.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Great.

My colleague Mr. Blaikie commented about a fixed election versus a snap election. Saskatchewan's is more fixed, but B.C.'s was a snap election.

What would happen with Canada Post should something be called unexpectedly, perhaps in spring, as a lot of people are talking about? Is Canada Post ready to go, already ramped up for a much larger potential mail-out?

[Louise Chayer]

Sure. The election date remains unknown at this time and we work very closely with Elections Canada in order to be prepared. After the last federal election, which resulted in a minority government, there are certain things we have to make sure are prepared with Elections Canada, the main thing being the equipment.

Normally, if it's a majority government, our containerization equipment would be returned to us, but when it's a minority government, that's something they keep so they can ensure that they are ready on their side and then we work with them. Once a date is known and they communicate to us, we get ready. We have a plan that we use for all federal elections, which has very concrete milestones. The deliverables are very clear. We have a memorandum of understanding already in place with Elections Canada, so we are certainly ready to support an election when one is called.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Are there any specific lessons learned, perhaps from the B.C. or Saskatchewan elections, that Canada Post hadn't thought of and would then think about for a federal election?

[Louise Chayer]

Things went very well. We got very good feedback from elections officials in both of those provinces. There were no major issues that I'm aware of. We have very open communications with elections officials and we look forward to any feedback they would have for us and to learn from that. Both of those elections used a business reply mail and both of those elections had a centralized return, meaning that the votes by mail were going to one location, which is not the case with a federal election.

Those are some of the things that will be different with a federal election. At this time, I'm not aware of any major lessons learned, but we do continue to work closely with the elections officials.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

On the issue of getting mail-in ballots to people, we hear stories, of course, of mail just getting dropped at the front door of an apartment. Is there a concern about that? Is there any proof of such things, or is that more just anecdotal talk?

[Louise Chayer]

Every mode of delivery should be secure. Whether it's a rural mailbox, a community mailbox or at-the-door delivery, mail should be secured. There could be some isolated issues and when those are brought to our attention we certainly investigate, but overall, we feel confident that the modes of delivery we have in place are secure.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

At the government operations committee, I had to give points to Canada Post on the PPE and the safety it provided to its members. At the time, I think, out of 57,000 employees, there was not a single case of internal transmission of COVID. Is that still the case?

[Louise Chayer]

We have had several cases. Some isolated cases were believed to be from workplace transmission—very, very small in number—and we worked with the local health officials in those cases. The majority of the cases have been community transmission.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Wonderful. You've answered my questions. Thanks very much. I appreciate your time.

[Louise Chayer]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Mr. Alghabra.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon to our witnesses. Thank you for being here.

I have some questions for you, Ms. Chayer, but first let me take a second to salute Canada Post and all its employees. At a time when we have witnessed a lot of disruptions throughout our economy and our society, I have yet to hear of a massive complaint about interruptions in the delivery of mail or parcels. Congratulations to you and the entire team at Canada Post.

I think the questions we all have about mail-in ballots are not because we have questions about the capacity of Canada Post to deliver what is predicted to be four million to five million ballots, because we know that the capacity exists. We just want to make sure that the process itself is secure and that the coordination between you and Elections Canada is at an optimum level.

Do you have any suggestions for us on what we should require or recommend to Elections Canada when it comes to the relationship with Canada Post about coordination for mail-in ballots?

[Louise Chayer]

Thank you very much for the kind words. Our people have been working very, very hard. I will pass on your comments to them, for sure. Thank you for that.

Yes, when it comes to mail-in ballots, I don't think we have any concerns with the capacity. Five million votes, when we have mechanized equipment to deal with that, will not be an issue. We continue to work daily with Elections Canada to work out some of the finer details.

One thing we all have to kind of understand is the way that Canada Post is built. We collect and deliver mail. When we collect mail, that collection is based on over 200,000 induction points. Every red mailbox, every post office, every Shoppers Drug Mart with a dealer in the back—all of those are the more than 200,000 induction points within our system. Those induction points are cleared Monday to Friday. They are cleared at different times of the day. We overlay on top of that our transportation network, which is built to deliver mail on a two-day standard for local to local mail, a three-day standard for regional mail, and a four-day standard for national mail.

We have to understand what that would look like to the voter who has a ballot they wish to cast. We need to understand what language we are talking about when we say “mail by” a certain date. If we say “mail by the close of the polls,” does that mean people will feel confident that they can drop off their ballot at 5 o'clock in the afternoon in the little red box by the corner of their street on their way home after work, when that box was perhaps cleared at 3 o'clock in the afternoon?

We have to understand what that means so that Elections Canada can take that advice and understand how best to communicate that to the voters and to give voters a very clear understanding of when they need to deposit their votes so that they can be collected on time and delivered on time to elections officials.

Those are all the details we are in constant communication with Elections Canada about to understand and to work out. Those are the things we need to clarify over the coming weeks as we go through this.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Did I understand you correctly that some of the provincial elections use a different class of mail than the federal election? Can you elaborate on that, please?

[Louise Chayer]

For sure. Saskatchewan and British Columbia used what we call “business reply” mail. It was one centralized address that it was going to, so that was a product that it was easy to do that with.

With a federal election, we are looking at 338 different addresses that these votes would be going to. Putting in place a BRM for all those 338 becomes very complicated, and logistically very difficult to manage. They opted for a “postage paid” envelope. We are actually working with Elections Canada to make sure that we can test at least 200 envelopes from each of those 338 prior to that, in order to make sure that we understand the mechanization of that and that there are no issues with how they will be printed and how they will affix the return address to it.

We want to make sure that everything is good, so we will be testing that. We're working with Elections Canada to test that so that we can have very good acceptance rates on our mechanized equipment.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

You are doing the testing before any election is declared.