Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 27th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number five of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

I'd like to start by saying that we'll set aside about 10 minutes at the end of this meeting so I can inform you about our next couple of meetings and whom we have scheduled as witnesses. If you have any comments about the witness lists that have been circulated to you by the clerk, we'll talk about that in the last 10 minutes of the meeting.

Also, I just want to mention that there has been a motion put on notice by Mr. Doherty, which will be debatable at our Thursday meeting. I'll set aside about 30 minutes for committee business during that meeting from 12:30 to 1 o'clock so that we can discuss that motion and figure out how it works within our working plan, and we might want to get into more details of our working plan at that meeting as well.

For now, since our witnesses have been waiting, we'll carry on with what is scheduled for today's meeting, and they are the chief electoral officers of New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island.

I'd like to start by providing you with some information following the motion that was adopted in the House on Wednesday, September 23, 2020.

The committee is now sitting in a hybrid format, meaning that members can participate either in person or by video conference. Witnesses must appear by video conference. All members, regardless of their method of participation, will be counted for the purposes of quorum. The committee's power to sit is, however, limited by the priority use of the House resources, which is determined by the party whips. All questions must be decided by a recorded vote, unless the committee disposes of them with unanimous consent or on division. Finally, the committee may deliberate in camera provided that it takes into account the potential risks to confidentiality inherent to such deliberations with remote participants.

Today's proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. A reminder that the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee. To ensure an orderly meeting, I'd like to outline a few rules.

For those participating virtually—that includes our witnesses—members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either the floor, English or French. Before speaking, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. When you are done speaking, please put your mike on mute to minimize any interference.

A reminder that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. Should members need to request the floor outside of their designated time for questions, they should activate their mike and state that they have a point of order. If a member wishes to intervene on a point of order that has been raised by another member, they should use the “raise hand” function. This will signal to me their interest to speak and create a speakers list. In order to do so, you can click on the “participants” section at the bottom of the screen, and when the list pops up you'll see the “raise hand” icon. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, the use of headsets with a boom microphone is mandatory for everyone participating remotely. Should any technical challenges arise, please advise the chair.

Please note that we may need to suspend for a few minutes, as we need to ensure that all members are able to participate fully. For those participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in the committee room. Should you wish to get my attention, signal me with a hand gesture, or state my name at any appropriate time. Should you wish to raise a point of order, wait for an appropriate time, and indicate to me clearly that you wish to raise a point of order. With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do our best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

With that being said, I'd like to welcome our two witnesses, who will have five minutes each for introductory remarks.

From Elections New Brunswick, we have Kimberly Poffenroth, the chief electoral officer of New Brunswick. From Elections P.E.I., we have Mr. Tim Garrity, chief electoral officer of Prince Edward Island.

I'm not sure if you have decided in which order you will speak. Would one of you like to go first—Mr. Garrity or Ms. Poffenroth.

Okay, go ahead, Mr. Garrity.

[Tim Garrity, Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Prince Edward Island]

All right, if Kim doesn't mind, I can take the lead on this one.

First of all, I would like to say hello to everyone and thank you for the opportunity to come to speak to you today. It was nice to get the invitation.

We're in the middle of a by-election here now and we have some busy days, but today is a bit of a down day, so that's a good thing.

We are the smallest province to run an electoral event during the pandemic. I hope I can highlight some of the challenges we've had and some of the challenges we've overcome as we're going through this, and the successes we've had.

Once this pandemic began, as in most places, we decided to work remotely and we all started working from home. We were able to do that without too much of a problem here.

We've been very fortunate here in P.E.I., within the Atlantic bubble, to have little to no community spread of COVID-19. We decided at that point, with an office of only three staff, and in a minority situation, that we would reopen the office with very limited public access and physical distancing rules in place to plan for the possibility of a pending election. Again, being in a minority situation we always have to be ready within our office, and with the COVID pandemic that was going to be a new challenge, so we wanted to be sure we had everything in place were that to happen.

We really began just in the background, just slowly preparing things. We weren't very concerned about a snap election being called here in P.E.I., unlike some other jurisdictions. The minority government has been working very well collaboratively here, and there was not much sign of a snap election taking place, but we still needed to be prepared in any case.

Then, in early September, one of our members of the legislative assembly from district 10 decided to resign, and that's when our office started planning for a pending by-election. The clock started to tick for us. We essentially had a six-month window, and playing that election bingo on the calendar, we began trying to calculate when the next date for the election would be. Of course, there was the possibility of a full general election if the government decided it wanted to take that route as well. We were preparing for both, but mainly thinking we were just going to be looking at the by-election in one of our districts.

We started to work right away with the chief public health officer of P.E.I. to draft a plan for how an election would be run here. We did have a requirement in our legislation to do a full door-to-door enumeration process for that district, but we were able to get that waived. I have some authority under the act during such a time to be able to bypass certain sections of the act. We had agreement from our legal...as well as from all four parties here that were planning to put candidates forward, that we could bypass that. There was that requirement that says if it's further than seven months away from the previous one, and we were 10 months away from doing one in our last election, so everyone agreed that we could get away with that, which was very nice.

We started to procure some supplies. As we all know, it became challenging to get some things, and we would need them in larger numbers, so hand sanitizers, disinfectant wipes, face masks, shields, stickers for the floor, plexiglass barriers, all of this we started to procure, as we could, in order to get ready for this.

Once the writ period began, we started to work on obtaining the workers that we would need at the polls, developing training sessions that could be COVID-compliant with social distancing and things taking place. As well, we worked on the voting location itself to make sure there was a separate entrance and exit, and that we would have ample space to house the workers, the electors and the scrutineers.

We've had two advance voting days so far, one of them being just yesterday. We've had very good turnout with people all in all wearing their masks. They are being very compliant. They're being very understanding. We haven't had any wait times, which is very good, and we're up to about a 30% turnout so far after just the first two days of voting, which is great.

Anyway, I'm happy to answer questions that come up going forward, and I hope to be able to offer some insight.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Ms. Poffenroth.

[Kimberly Poffenroth, Chief Electoral Officer, Elections New Brunswick]

Good morning, everyone. First of all, I would like to thank all of you for the invitation to appear before the standing committee today and to participate in the important discussions that are going on.

New Brunswick's election management body is the first in Canada to hold a provincial general election during the pandemic and I hope that sharing our experiences will assist you in your deliberations on the report submitted by Chief Electoral Officer Perrault.

I don't plan to use the full five minutes allotted to me for an opening statement and I'm looking forward to answering any questions you have.

What I do want to raise is that in the spirit of full disclosure, Elections New Brunswick is pursuing legislative changes as a result of our experiences with the provincial general election, specifically around municipal elections. Unlike most elections bodies across the country, Elections New Brunswick is responsible not only for administering and conducting provincial elections but also for administering and conducting municipal elections and elections for district education councils and appointments to regional health authorities. Those elections are coming up in May 2021. They were delayed due to the pandemic. They were supposed to have been held in May 2020. As a result of our experiences during the provincial general election, we are requesting amendments to the Municipal Elections Act that, if accepted by government and passed by the legislative assembly, would provide my office and me with greater flexibility in administering those municipal and local elections in May 2021.

What our experience during the provincial general election last month showed us is that clearly the prescriptive nature of the elections act limited my ability to respond to challenges that arose from holding an election during a pandemic, particularly given that, as you all know, at this point it is a very fluid situation—and that applies right across the country.

So I'll be asking for more flexibility to modify and adapt election procedures as required in order to run those municipal elections, and also to limit that flexibility, because there's good reason legislatively why you want relatively prescriptive legislation when it comes to elections. The flexibility that I'll be looking for will be limited to cases where the province is either in a state of emergency or a local state of emergency has been declared, and that would include a public health emergency such as we are currently in.

The ultimate goal of requesting that flexibility is to ensure that no elector is disenfranchised as a result of unforeseen obstacles that may arise as a result of the pandemic and as we continue to administer elections during this very unprecedented time.

Those are my short opening comments and I'm looking forward to the questions from the committee this afternoon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you. Both of you were very succinct and efficient. I appreciate that. I think we'll get a lot of chances for questions.

We're going to start with our six-minute round with Mr. Tochor.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and I'd like to thank the witnesses for providing information today.

Ms. Poffenroth, congratulations on running the first province-wide election during this pandemic. I'm sure there are things to learn from your experiences and hopefully suggestions on how we can get through this all together.

I'd like to talk a little bit about the authorities that you would have in your province to revoke a writ, be it in an individual riding or a constituency, or if a regional outbreak occurred. Walk us through how that process would work.

[Kimberly Poffenroth]

Thank you. There is no authority to revoke a writ once it has been issued. In the spring of 2020, we were actually in a situation where we had municipal elections that were about to commence, which don't use a writ, but we also had orders already issued, directing me to issue writs for provincial by-elections that would be held in June 2020. The only option available was for the legislative assembly to direct that I not issue a notice of election for the municipal elections and order me not to issue the writs of election as directed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council.

The only option available in New Brunswick is legislative intervention. There is no authority under the elections act to revoke a writ once it has been issued, or even to not issue the writ once the order directing me to issue the writ has been given.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Once the legislature is dissolved, there's no power to reconvene, because the train is going.

What would have happened if your provincial health officials declared a state of emergency?

[Kimberly Poffenroth]

We were already in a state of emergency. There had been an order declaring a state of emergency in the province of New Brunswick as a result of the pandemic. I know every province is using different nomenclature, but we were in the yellow phase in New Brunswick at the time the writs of election were issued, which is the lowest phase below green, which would be once there's an actual vaccine for the virus.

Had the province or an area of the province moved to a higher state of emergency—such as is now in place in one health region in the province—there is no mechanism to halt that election. However, we did consult with the chief medical officer of health and we were, I would say, relatively confident that the measures we put in place to protect both the electors and our election workers were sufficient regardless of whether the area was in the yellow or orange zone.

Red would be a different issue.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

If we went to a worst-case scenario, like this region we're talking about right now.... What if the snap election was called for a little bit later and the election would be next week and you had a stay-at-home order. What would happen to those voters? You couldn't bring back the writ, so what would be your plan if that occurred?

[Kimberly Poffenroth]

To be perfectly honest, we didn't have a plan in place in the event that the state of emergency went back to red. It was a question that was asked. I knew what my authority was, which was very little.

There was discussion at the political level as to whether or not there was authority for cabinet to take measures under the Emergency Measures Act for New Brunswick. I was not privy to those discussions.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

If it was up to you—it's kind of a loaded question because some people might grab the power when provided—would you like that authority to rest at cabinet, provincially or federally, or do you think that power should rest with you in the office?

[Kimberly Poffenroth]

Personally, even with the legislative amendments that I'm requesting, I do not feel comfortable as the chief electoral officer to have the authority to revoke a writ to stop an election that's already proceeding. I believe that authority needs to rest either with the Lieutenant Governor in Council or with the legislative assembly.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

I'd like to talk briefly on additional costs. Comparing this election to the last general election, was there any increase in costs?

[Kimberly Poffenroth]

There was most certainly an increase in costs.

I have to apologize. One thing I wanted to do this morning was to run off the most up-to-date numbers from this past election. Unfortunately, other work requirements got in the way of my getting those numbers.

Before the writ was even issued for the election, we had spent about a million—I shouldn't say already spent. We estimated that the cost would be about an additional million dollars. The election budget for 2018 was $12 million, so we were estimating a little under a 10% increase.

At this point I'm quite confident that the increase was actually larger. At that time, we were looking at what we had already ordered for personal protective equipment, what we had identified as additional staffing costs—we had created two new positions for every polling location—and the costs associated with mail-in ballots.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Ms. Poffenroth. That's all the time we have.

Mr. Turnbull, you have six minutes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thanks to Ms. Poffenroth and Mr. Garrity for being here today. I'm really happy that you could be with us because there's a lot we can learn from the challenges you've experienced in your provincial elections and how you overcame some of them. I really appreciate your time and your opening remarks.

I have a few questions.

Ms. Poffenroth, I understand that in New Brunswick you actually had a fairly low number of cases at the time of the election. Is that correct? Could you tell me roughly how many cases you had at the time?

[Kimberly Poffenroth]

Off the top of my head, I'm not 100% confident of the number, but I believe that at certain times during the election it may have been zero. We were definitely in single digits. I believe there may have been one or two active cases. I believe that, at times during that four-week period, we may have been at zero. It was extremely low by comparison.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Mr. Garrity, would you say that it was around the same for your province? You said your case numbers were low as well, right?

[Tim Garrity]

Yes. Currently we have zero active cases in the province. We've had zero cases of community spread. All of our cases have been travel related.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

That's great to hear, to both of you, that people are safe and healthy.

Given the rising case numbers throughout the country, and certainly in the four largest provinces, a national federal election would likely require special measures to account for communities that have a higher number of cases or a possible rise in cases at any point. It's very hard to predict. As you said, Ms. Poffenroth, it's a very fluid situation.

I know that, even though your case numbers were low, you were probably preparing for potential rises in cases. During the writ period—Ms. Poffenroth, I'll ask you first—did you have any special measures you put in place that can maybe be recommendations for our committee to consider?

[Kimberly Poffenroth]

Yes, absolutely.

We followed the advice of our public health officials, which was very similar to the advice that public health officials across the world are giving when they're talking about any sort of public gathering. We were essentially putting in place the same sorts of measures you would see at any retail establishment. We ordered plenty of personal protective equipment. We provided advice to our returning officers that they should be looking, both for their returning offices and for polling locations, at larger spaces to accommodate social distancing and limiting the number of people who are at a location at any time.

We had ordered more face masks than we actually needed, because most people brought their own. Of course, like Mr. Garrity, when we were home during the period when things were in lockdown, we began thinking about how we were going to run an election during a pandemic. We were in a minority government situation. We had postponed both provincial by-elections and municipal elections. We had to immediately start thinking about those things. At that time the advice was very fluid, even on masks. We ordered enough disposable masks for every elector in the province. By the time the election came around, people were wearing their own masks.

We had quite a robust media campaign encouraging people to vote early and to take advantage of other voting opportunities. We were using the term “flattening the election curve”. In New Brunswick you can vote at any returning office in the province. We were encouraging people to vote at the returning offices, which were available from the time the writ was issued, to take advantage of advance voting days and to vote by mail.

We used a modified vote-by-mail option for our residents in long-term care facilities. That's really going to be an area that has to be looked at and considered in quite a bit of detail. It will be different. Every province has different rules in place as to what's permissible in terms of visitors at long-term care facilities. In speaking with other colleagues, even what's considered a symptom that keeps people excluded from, whether it's public spaces or....

It's really about taking seriously those recommendations that public health is making with regard to any retail establishment, particularly when you're looking at long-term care facilities, and being prepared for a large increase in individual voters taking advantage of those opportunities.

We didn't see the increase in the numbers of mail-in ballots that they did in British Columbia, for example, but it was an exponential increase in demand. In New Brunswick, normally we don't even keep track of the number of mail-in ballots. They have been lumped in with other special voting opportunities. We'd be lucky if we got 100. We processed 13,000 mail-in ballots. In comparison to B.C.'s 700,000, it sounds like nothing, but when you have a system that's designed to handle one or two in an office, it does have a large impact. Managing voters' expectations of what can be done with mail-in ballots is very important as well.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Yes, these are great comments. You actually answered some of my other questions.

Maybe I'll ask you to go a little deeper and then, Mr. Garrity, I'd love to give you a chance to respond as well.

Long-term—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

You have only 10 seconds, though, Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Do I?

I'll just say thank you very much. I appreciated your remarks. I'm sure we'll have many other good questions from my colleagues.