Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 110 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

We are meeting today for the first time with regard to the incident that took place in the gallery of the House of Commons.

I would like to welcome our guests who are here with us.

I also want to note that it is March 21, 2024, which is World Down Syndrome Day. It is a day that was created to raise public awareness, promote inclusivity, encourage advocacy and support the well-being of those living with Down syndrome.

I'm usually in my riding on this day, but I am not today, so Kaleb and I shared a pair of socks with each of you. We hope you rock your socks.

With that, we'd like to welcome Ihor Michalchyshyn, chief executive officer and executive director of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, and Jars Balan, director of the Kule Ukrainian Canadian studies centre at the Canadian institute of Ukrainian studies.

I believe there are opening comments from one of you, and you'll both be available for comments.

With that, I welcome you both to PROC. I thank you for taking the time to be here.

The floor is yours.

[Ihor Michalchyshyn, Chief Executive Officer and Exective Director, Ukrainian Canadian Congress]

Good morning. Thank you.

We were just having some audio issues, but I hope you can hear me now.

I'll read the opening statement, and then we're available for questions.

On behalf of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, it's a pleasure to be here today virtually to speak with you. I'll read our opening statement on this matter at this point.

For many centuries, all of the inhabitants who lived on the territory of what is Ukraine today, including the Jewish people, suffered successive occupations by foreign empires and colonizers who sought to subjugate those for whom Ukraine was home. Some 30 years ago, with the declaration of Ukrainian independence and statehood, the difficult process of reaching mutual understanding and comity began—and it continues to this day.

The history of World War II in Ukraine is complex and difficult to easily summarize. Ukraine was caught between the two tyrannies of Hitler and Stalin. In the 20th century, Ukraine was the centre of what Yale historian Timothy Snyder has called the “Bloodlands”.

The Ukrainian people fought for their independence in WWI and WWII, and are now fighting for the freedom of Europe. Without their own state, Ukrainians fought in different military formations, but always in pursuit of a free and independent Ukraine and against Soviet, Bolshevik and Russian tyranny.

Following the incident in Canada's Parliament this fall, our community was once again subjected to a familiar disinformation narrative smearing Ukrainians, which originated from the Soviet Union and is now being used by the Russian Federation.

It is unfortunate and hurtful that many ill-informed politicians and members of the media chose to engage with simplistic and inaccurate narratives, instead of relying on the findings of a Canadian commission of inquiry. As one of Canada's pre-eminent scholars of Ukrainian history, Dr. Paul Robert Magocsi, chair of Ukrainian studies at the University of Toronto, stated, “There is simply no proof that the Galicia Division engaged in war crimes”. The characterization of former members of the Galicia Division collectively as Nazis, fascists, war criminals or monsters is inflammatory and unsupported by the historical record.

In the 1980s, the Government of Canada called a commission—the Deschênes commission—to investigate claims that thousands of Nazi war criminals were hiding in Canada. The commission found that:

Between 1971 and 1986, public statements by outside interveners concerning alleged war criminals residing in Canada have spread increasingly large and grossly exaggerated figures as to their estimated number.

The commission also found that:

Charges of war crimes against members of the Galicia Division have never been substantiated, neither in 1950 when they were first preferred, nor in 1984...nor before this Commission.

It has been the long-standing position of our community that, if there is evidence of any wrongdoing by any individual, regardless of who they are or when they committed a crime, this evidence should be brought to the attention of Canada's war crimes unit to be pursued in that forum and not in the court of public opinion.

As Dr. Magocsi stated, “It is not in the interest of Canada for politicians and the media to distort the historical past and besmirch the reputation of an individual in order to gain some ostensible advantage in the Canadian political arena.”

The disinformation narrative smearing Ukrainians originates from the Soviet days and now is being used by the Russian Federation in an attempt to discredit an independent Ukrainian democracy. This is an effort to sow social division within Canada and other western democracies. It is an attempt by Russia to distract from the war of annihilation against Ukraine that it wages, which this Parliament has correctly and unanimously recognized as a genocide against the Ukrainian people.

Every day, including last night, Ukrainians cities are being bombed by Russian missiles. Every day, Russia is murdering Ukrainian civilians, abducting Ukrainian children and committing war crimes and crimes against humanity.

It is the defence of Ukraine and ensuring Ukraine's victory over Russia which the UCC and our community are seized with at this time. We invite all members of this committee, all parliamentarians and the Government of Canada to join us in this effort.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We will now enter into five-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Kmiec, followed by Mr. Duguid.

Then it will be Ms. Gaudreau's turn, and after her, Ms. Mathyssen.

We'll go over a couple of points really quickly.

First, one person speaks at a time, because we do have two official languages. It's challenging, because you are virtual and we are in person, but I think you can see the room, so you'll see when a person has finished. We can try not to speak over top of each other.

Second, we know it's a tough topic and not an easy conversation. I would ask that we remember why we're here and to stay focused on the study. We do want to have a thorough discussion and conversation, but it needs to be respectful. I will do my best to ensure that happens, as I'm sure all members will.

Mr. Kmiec, five minutes go to you—through the chair.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

My first question will be to Mr. Michalchyshyn. We've spoken many times before. You know I've been to large Ukrainian churches all across Canada for CUAET visa holders, and I've been meeting with lots of people in the evenings to talk to the Ukrainian community. However, I was going to ask you how we move forward from here in order to avoid events and disagreements among the diaspora communities in Canada that are at stake here. Three of them have an interest in how history is interpreted, namely the Jewish community in Canada, the Ukrainian diaspora and the Polish diaspora—my last name gives it away.

How do we move forward from here so the events that happened here are not used by the Russian Federation to further its propaganda campaign in this war that's happening right now in the territory of Ukraine?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

Thank you.

I appreciate the attention you've been giving to our Ukrainian displaced people and refugees at this difficult time.

I think there are two things.

We have historians. I referenced Dr. Magocsi. Mr. Balan is with us. Many historians from different communities are writing the history of these difficult chapters of history and are providing ways for us to speak to each other to interpret them.

I think the other is, as I've referenced, not to relitigate the past. We had the Deschênes commission, which was, I understand, a difficult time for communities in terms of the proceedings and tensions. I think that concluded in a way that people felt that every community had an opportunity to give its presentation, to hear and to participate. I think reopening these difficult chapters without the work of academics and reopening processes that have been concluded are not a helpful way forward.

[Jars Balan, Director, Kule Ukrainian Canadian Studies Centre, Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies, University of Alberta]

Can I add something?

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Go ahead.

[Jars Balan]

I want to point out that Ukrainians and the Poles struck a historical commission in Ukraine and Poland to discuss these painful issues, and that commission has met and tried to resolve these differences in their views of history and everything. I think that's the way to go—to have a calm discussion of it. The biggest concern, of course, is always knee-jerk reactions, emotional reactions to provocations. If there's some way to remain focused and calm and not overreact right away to situations as happened with the incident with Mr. Hunka, that would be appreciated by all.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Chair, I'll get into my next question.

I'm glad we brought up these commissions because for the last few years President Duda of the Republic of Poland and President Zelenskyy have been doing these reconciliation meetings, masses, with the heads of the churches on both sides of the border, in Volhynia and Galicia, as well in recognition of the fact that you have to forgive in order to be forgiven. I think that's what the bishops on both sides have said; that's what both presidents have called for.

I'm going to reiterate the first question I asked. How can we help as Canadian politicians, as Canadians in Canada, to ensure events that happen here in Canada are not used by the Russian propaganda machine to undermine the legitimate right of Ukrainians to have their own country and to keep their own borders the way they want to keep them, and their own culture and language, so events here are not used to undermine their story in Europe and also internationally. That really does sap the strength of the Ukrainian people and the government to be able to find new allies and to continue having the same allies they have.

What can we do going forward?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

Jars, would you like to go with that?

[Jars Balan]

Like I said, the first thing is to make sure that, when an incident like this arises, you don't overreact right away: Bide your time, say that you are investigating this, and bring the temperature down, because if you react in an emotional way, you're going to create all kinds of further complications with the issue. That, I suppose, is the first thing.

In terms of avoiding a situation like this, the whole question of vetting comes up. How do you vet these invitations or whatever? That's a complicated issue, and that's on Parliament to figure out. I'm not sure how you try to vet this, given all the people who come from all over the world with all kinds of backgrounds, bringing all kinds of issues with them. It's not such an easy thing to resolve.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you very much for saying that. That's exactly why we're having this committee study. The whole purpose of this is to look back on how we can improve the vetting.

[Jars Balan]

Yes.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Do you think there's an opportunity perhaps for organizations like yours to participate in such vetting in the future when there are leaders of countries with a diaspora connected to them?

Wouldn't you think that, in such situations where there is perhaps sensitivity, individuals who are invited not be recognized necessarily from the floor of the House of Commons and that it be reserved expressly for unique situations where there are national heads of state and national heads of government?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

I think we have a number of experts and historians in the community who could contribute to those conversations and participate in reviews of whatever kinds of proposed plans there are.

Jars, do you have anything to add to that?

[Jars Balan]

Yes, I think that it is possible to approach communities for some input in advance—and not just the Ukrainian community. There are other issues I'm sure with other communities.

I think that's what you would want to do, so they don't get caught off guard with this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Just in the nature of transparency, that did end up being a six-minute round. Mr. Kmiec did offer to interrupt, which I asked him not to, but I appreciated. I said I would give you that time.

That means that I would offer Mr. Duguid a six-minute round, but I'm going to stick to where I was and say it's a five-minute round. If you negotiate as nicely as Mr. Kmiec did, I'll consider it.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

But I'm hoping you don't.

You have five minutes, Mr. Duguid—through the chair.

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the time.

I particularly thank our witnesses, two people I know well and who I have had many conversations with over the years.

Madam Chair, I have a quick question with a short answer, hopefully.

It's been clear that Mr. Hunka was invited by the Speaker to sit in the gallery and recognized him.

On the issue of the rally that was held that same evening with President Zelenskyy, I wonder if Mr. Michalchyshyn could describe the process that happened. My understanding is that the UCC put Mr. Hunka on a list and that the Prime Minister then invited Mr. Hunka.

Is that exactly what happened, that it was at your invitation?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

Yes. We were contacted to do a broad invitation to thousands of people in Toronto. We provided a list of every past donor, volunteer, community organization and boards of directors that we had to receive an invitation. I don't know who was or wasn't invited in the end, but his name appeared on a list that we had forwarded, yes.

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Mr. Michalchyshyn, I think you know that Winnipeg is proudly the home of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. There's another major office in Toronto, as you know. The UCC hosted a major commemorative event on the second anniversary of the illegal invasion. Over 800 people attended.

I can tell you two gentlemen on Zoom today that the Ukrainian community expressed to me feeling absolutely betrayed at the lack of unity of Parliament, particularly directed at the Conservative Party and their vote against the Ukrainian free trade agreement as well as other supports for Ukraine.

I just wonder if you would comment on how this incident has further fostered this sense of betrayal, particularly as the flames have been fanned on this particular issue. I know, up close and personal, that the community is in pain.

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

I guess I could say, as I said in my opening statement, that there was surprise and hurt that this is coming back again as a disinformation narrative, which we've seen over decades and we're facing again.

In terms of Parliament and legislation, I think everyone knows that we strive for unanimity. We strive to speak with all parties to urge everyone to support the Ukrainian community and the Ukrainian cause at this point in terms of what they're asking of us in weapons, trade and other things that will help Ukraine win Russia's war of aggression.

For people like me, this is one of the first times we've been dealing with this narrative. I think Mr. Balan and others have seen this repeat itself over time. Our surprise is that we haven't been able to educate people enough to not go down these paths of disinformation.

[Jars Balan]

Could I just say...?

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Go ahead, Mr. Balan.