Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Luciuk, do you have any comments on that?

[Dr. Lubomyr Luciuk]

Mr. Hunka appeared nowhere on the Internet until after the incident, so I'm not sure how anyone googling him or looking for him online would have found anything. When the controversy erupted, suddenly a very sophisticated Wikipedia page appeared about the Hunka scandal—or whatever they called it—which I think originated in Qatar, which we know, of course, is a hotbed of historical studies on Ukraine and World War II. Clearly, it's a fabricated page, made to continue the controversy.

How could anyone vet someone like Yaroslav Hunka? He's a completely innocent Canadian who has committed no crimes. If you had looked at police records, security records or RCMP records, what would you have found? Nothing. He's a 98-year-old man in a wheelchair, a taxpayer, a family man and man who served in the Canadian military for two years in the militia. He has a perfect record in Canada, 70 years of it. What would you have vetted?

Now, the fact is that, as I say, some people, for physical security, of course.... If someone has threatened Parliament or has threatened a member of Parliament, that person should not be allowed into the House, absolutely, but this is the people's House. You can't just suddenly have your staffers decide who gets in because they found something on the Internet. Are you kidding? If you go on the Internet, I'm sure.... Well, you all do. I know you all do. There's so much garbage there. Are you going to use that to vet Canadians?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I'd like to clarify what you said, since I intend to make recommendations later.

Ultimately, in your opinion, the Speaker of the House, as part of his or her work, must have better tools to check the backgrounds of guests, especially those who are recognized and introduced in the House. That's what I understand from your comments as far as the screening or diligence measures are concerned.

[Richard Marceau]

That's exactly it, Ms. Fortier. They must also be given the resources to do so.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I understand. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

We want to make recommendations, so we're thinking. Given the challenge that arises with regard to the quest for information, would it be worthwhile to recommend that a committee be established that combines the House Administration, the Office of the Speaker of the House of Commons and the protocol, among others? A member from each party would also sit on the committee to avoid situations like this occurring during events as important as the visit of a head of state.

[Richard Marceau]

It's a worthwhile proposal, as long as the people around the table have the resources to do their job properly. Once again, you are overwhelmed, running from committee to committee, sitting in the House, your constituents are calling you, and so on. So I understand the constraints you have as human beings. To that group of people, I would add, if I may, Ms. Gaudreau, people from the Parliamentary Protective Service.

[Dr. Lubomyr Luciuk]

Again, I'll say that, for physical security, you're already capably protected by people like the Sergeant-at-Arms and his staff. I think vetting people by a star chamber composed of members of Parliament and others.... Again, it's just too easy to see this working against the interests of Canadians. It's adding another layer of bureaucracy and another layer of staff. This comes with costs.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: You have to listen to people you find disagreeable and with whom you disagree. You disagree around this table. I've just watched it. That's part of your job. You may find there will be people coming to the House of Commons whom some people find objectionable. However, you invite them because they have a point of view you want to hear. Unless there is a physical threat to a member of Parliament, a senator or the House more generally, I don't think you should keep anyone out.

However—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you—

[Dr. Lubomyr Luciuk]

—should you acknowledge them? That's a different thing.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much.

Madam Chair, in light of all the information we have, we'll be able to make recommendations. We're dealing with such a sensitive subject and we don't want this to happen again.

Thank you to the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have the floor.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I know this is a bit of a provincial issue, because provinces determine the educational components of what they teach. However, clearly, there's no comprehensive education about World War II in many different ways.

What do you believe we need to do better to create an awareness and have better education within our schools? What can our federal government help do in terms of that? I know there's a commissioner on anti-Semitism. There are things in the works in terms of providing those greater educational components. However, if you could add your thoughts on this, that would be great.

[Richard Marceau]

It goes further than school. I think the vast majority of Canadians, before Russia's invasion of Ukraine, had no idea about the Holodomor—the systemic creation of famine to kill millions of Ukrainians. Canadians did not know about that or about how the Ukrainian community here was impacted by this. Similarly, a number of people, especially young people, have no idea about the Holocaust, how it came about and what flew out from the Holocaust: the creation of all the international infrastructure, the protection of human rights and all of that stuff.

Yes, schools have to do a better job. The Province of Ontario, for example, made Holocaust education mandatory. That is good. I think different genocides that happened—the Holodomor, the Rwandan genocide, the Armenian genocide and others—have to be better taught not only to kids but to all Canadians. That is why the executive director of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress mentioned the work that's been done.

Since the House adopted April as Genocide Remembrance, Condemnation and Prevention Month, there's been a lot of work done between the Ukrainian and Jewish communities, and other communities as well. This is the type of, I guess, public awareness where you, as members of Parliament and the federal government, have a role to play.

[Dr. Lubomyr Luciuk]

As an old professor, all I can say is that, unfortunately, people don't read anymore. Not reading and depending only on the Internet for your information gives us nothing but grief. I'm seeing that in my classes at the Royal Military College. I saw it at Queen's. I saw it at U of T. I've seen it around the world when I've lectured. People don't read. Because they don't read, they go to the Internet. They get their information from that and it's usually polluted. I'm afraid no amount of money is going to change that at this point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

I'm glad you were able to experience our procedure and House affairs committee. I'm very glad you were able to take the time. If you think of anything else, send it to the clerk. We'll have it translated in both official languages and shared around.

With that, have a great day.

This meeting is adjourned.