Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Does Mr. Marceau have anything further to add?

[Richard Marceau]

No. I mentioned the importance of properly vetting.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

I will say that when it comes to these kinds of conversations, whether it's whispering in our guests' ears or whatever else, if we could just go through the chair, that would be the best. I would appreciate that being the case. It would help maintain the decorum in what we need to do here today.

With that, we'll go to Mr. Kmiec.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

How much time do I have, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

You have five minutes.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Okay. I will try to be judicious with my time.

I think the question is about who should get recognized in Parliament and who should not. You can invite all types of people. I think the second part of the issue that this committee has been tasked with is to figure out how we go about fixing the reputation of Canada—fixing the reputation that we damaged. As a group, as a collective, because of the actions of the Speaker and the lack of action by the Office of the Prime Minister, we damaged President Zelenskyy's reputation. We allowed it to then be used by Russian propaganda to go after him.

We've talked about sources. The Polish Institute of National Remembrance—Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation found that in the village of Huta Pieniacka, a massacre was indeed committed. The 14th was involved. Ethnic cleansing was done against 100,000 Polish people. That is why the Polish community is so sensitive about this.

The national commission was found to have had the right facts. The findings were confirmed by the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine in 2005. We can talk about Wikipedia. That's one thing. We can Google things. These are national commissions.

What we do here in Canada, in our sources, it's our particular context. We should look to the two nations closest to a country that they are now fighting—directly, in the case of Ukraine, and indirectly, in the case of Poland—to ensure that both remain free. As I've said before, you cannot have a free Ukraine without a free Poland. You cannot have a free Poland without a free Ukraine. You will never have a home safe enough for the Jewish people in that region without both of those countries being free, where you are free to be a Jew who speaks Hebrew or Yiddish—including Yiddish proverbs, which I loved very much from my grandmother.

How do we move beyond this to fix the reputation of Canada and our Parliament so that we can be of benefit to our ally in Ukraine? I've asked that question of others as well. What are the specific actions we can take to fix the Prime Minister's Office's mistake and the Speaker's mistake for reconciliation?

Perhaps you can keep it short, because I have one more thing to ask. I'll cut you off in a minute and a half.

Mr. Marceau, if you want to answer first, go ahead.

[Richard Marceau]

Thank you.

This part is not only on politicians. This part is not only on members of Parliament. It is the duty of Canadians, be they of Ukrainian descent or Polish descent or Jewish descent, to work together. We cannot relitigate the past. We obviously have deep differences of opinion here around this table. That said, there is already work being done between the Polish community, the Ukrainian community and the Jewish community. This work has to be encouraged by members of Parliament, but it has to be sui generis. It has to be from the communities themselves.

I would put it to you, Mr. Kmiec, that this is work that the respective communities want to do.

Now, in terms of repairing the damage that has been done, it's ensuring that something like this does not happen again. That part is actually on this institution, on members of Parliament and on the administration of this place.

[Dr. Lubomyr Luciuk]

I would simply add to that that you in this committee are doing just that. You are restoring the reputation of Canada by examining these questions and allowing us to disagree with each other on some points, to do it in front of you. You listen to us, you'll go away and you'll think about it. I've suggested that you might want to apologize to Mr. Hunka. I have no expectation that you will, but the reality of it is that's now part of the record as well.

As for Ukraine, I can fairly much assure you that President Zelenskyy is not worrying about the Hunka incident right now. He has far more important things to do with his time. Thanks to all of you in all the parties who have been supporting Ukraine. That's the key thing right now: to support Ukraine.

Who benefits from this distraction? The Soviets or Russian Federation now. They're the ones who benefited from all of this. They're the ones who have run with this and perpetuated it for months.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Professor Luciuk. I see the chair about to return.

I have a motion to move, Madam Chair. I want to thank the two witnesses who have been here and shared their wisdom with us, but this is the last meeting before April 1, and my dear colleague, the member of Parliament Michael Cooper, had put forward a motion so I'm moving it.

I move:

That the committee, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(c)(iii), report to the House that, in its opinion, the unelected Senate has unacceptably amended Bill C-234, An Act to amend the Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act, which would provide carbon tax relief for Canadian farmers and, by extension, all Canadians, given the ancient financial privileges of the House of Commons which are rooted in the Constitution of Canada and, with particular relevance to Bill C-234, are expressed, in part, in Standing Order 80: “...it is the undoubted right of the House to direct, limit, and appoint in all such [money] bills, the ends, purposes, considerations, conditions, limitations, and qualifications of such grants, which are not alterable by the Senate”; and that the committee:

a. recommend that a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint Their Honours accordingly; and

b. call on the House to reject the Senate Amendments to Bill C-234.

Notice was given of this motion on Friday, March 15, 2024, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Okay. I hear you. I know what the rules are. Thank you, all.

However, we have guests I would like to dismiss. There are other people who had questions. I've been quite clear that you were going to have another round in which you could have let other members have their questions, and then you could have moved it. I was going to give you the floor again. I stated that you would get another round.

I feel like that would have been courteous because we did not only have guests come, but we bumped them multiple times.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Yes.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Madam Chair, I ended my speech. I am not speaking any more. I'd be happy if you want to proceed to whoever is on the list and call the question afterwards.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Are you just giving notice of it, or are you...?

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I moved the motion, but I'm not going to be speaking to it further.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

If you're done speaking to it, we'll go to Ms. O'Connell.

Can I just release our witnesses, or do we think...? I just want to say, are we doing this, because I'd like to release the witnesses.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

No, this will be short.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

You guys get to watch the show. Welcome to procedure and house affairs.

Ms. O'Connell.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Madam Chair, I move to adjourn debate, and I'll ask for a recorded vote.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

The debate is adjourned.

Your time is up, so I'll go to Ms. Fortier.

You have five minutes through the chair.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here, and I'd like to come back to the themes I prepared for.

We highlighted the fact that the situation is very complex. Obviously, we don't want this to happen again.

Mr. Marceau, you said that there was a lack of control and diligence. I'd like to know a little bit more about that, because we're trying to figure out how we can proceed in the future using the current procedures.

I wonder if it was the invitation that was the issue or the fact that the individual was introduced in the House. I'm not sure that, with the current procedures, we would have known that he had been invited and that he was in the gallery. I think we knew he was there because the Speaker recognized him.

I'd like to know how we can make sure that this type of situation doesn't happen again. I'm talking not only about introducing people in the gallery, but also about having a better understanding of the situation at the time of the invitation. Do you have any screening and due diligence measures for us?

I'd also like to give Mr. Luciuk an opportunity to share his opinion on the procedure.

[Richard Marceau]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Fortier.

There are several levels. First, there's the presence of these guests in the House, and then there are the tributes paid to them. As for their presence, it's the responsibility of the House, but also of each of you and your offices, to ensure that the people invited to the parliamentary precinct won't cause this kind of problem. Having said that, I know you're all busy and your staff are overworked and underpaid for their hours. They would appreciate it if I said so.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

We know that as well. Can you talk about tributes as well?

[Richard Marceau]

First of all, members of Parliament have to do part of the verification. Second, the names must be submitted to the House Administration, and the House security services must have the means to ensure that the people who are invited won't cause this kind of problem.

Then, when the intention is to pay tribute to a guest, the verification should be even more thorough. As a former parliamentarian, I think there is no greater tribute to be received in the House of Commons than to be recognized and introduced by the Speaker. In that respect, the Speaker of the House must ensure that the person being introduced and honoured isn’t the type of person we’re talking about today.