Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 9th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

What happened in the past hour is totally unacceptable. We must work responsibly. I'll act like an adult and start by thanking the witnesses.

Second, Madam Chair, when our witnesses start repeating themselves, it means that we have received the maximum amount of information from them. Could our committee receive some suggestions from our witnesses, who are experts in their field, so that we can continue our work? I had about 30 questions. I received answers to most of them.

Given tomorrow's events, we don't want to waste the witnesses' time. They nodded in agreement when I said that they had work to do.

I have no further questions. I'm sure that our other witnesses will provide even more detailed information. We don't want to create a big round table and end up not getting the job done. The witnesses shared their expertise. In my opinion, this could wrap up our very valuable hour with them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We're meeting with the official from the Privy Council Office for one hour, and with the officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development for two hours.

If you agree, Ms. Gaudreau, I'll now give the floor to Ms. Mathyssen.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

It was a suggestion to ensure that the committee operates efficiently and respectfully. We must avoid using deliberation time to play politics.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have the floor.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I would certainly be in agreement with Madame Gaudreau. However, just in terms of the independence that is supposed to be shown between both branches, there was correspondence, after the incident occurred, between government offices—some of your offices—about this affair and the Speaker's office. Again, it's all supposed to be independent.

Do you have any comments about how—if any—there was a disconnect in terms of that rule of independence between offices after the issue came forward?

[Sébastien Carrière]

You're looking ahead. That's the point of this study. Therefore, again, I would come back to the different levels. At some point down the road, there will be another visit with another address to Parliament, and if I'm still in this job, I might get very nervous at the thought of that.

Without impeding on the independence of the legislative branch, is there a way for a conversation to be had—perhaps the Speaker to parliamentary protocol to us—on what the intention of that office is for the address to Parliament? That would be great.

Our responsibility is to look after the visiting guests. We take that responsibility very seriously. I was shattered when that happened. It came out after President Zelenskyy had left. It had been an excellent visit on all fronts. Then this came out and shattered everything, and I felt extremely bad for President Zelenskyy.

Perhaps finding a way, while respecting everybody's prerogatives, to include any additional elements in the Speaker's gallery to our conversations with all the various federal partners that we deal with on a visit is something that we can look at going forward.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I know this may be difficult to estimate, but give me your best guesses. How many visits do you arrange, say, in a given year? How many have incidents, and how many do not have incidents?

[Sébastien Carrière]

I, fortunately, have numbers. This question comes up often.

It varies from year to year. Sometimes there could be an election. Sometimes there could be a pandemic. I have the 2023 numbers just to give you a sense. We had 33 incoming visits. Those were state, working, ministerial, official, private and guests of government visits. There were 33 incoming visits and 116 outgoing visits last year.

Last year was a big year for outgoing visits because folks had basically not travelled in two years. Those were by the Governor General, the Prime Minister, our three ministers at GAC and our parliamentary secretaries as well, and there were a couple of inaugurations and funerals. Those are the numbers for last year.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Part of the question was how many had incidents like this and how many didn't.

[Sébastien Carrière]

On the scale of that incident, it was zero.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Kennedy, I'm not sure if you're able to stay. I know that you were invited for one hour, so your time has come to an end with us, but if you would like to stay, you're welcome to.

I can see that you need to go.

[Christine Kennedy]

I do, Madam Chair.

Thank you for the opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for coming. We appreciate it.

Unless the witnesses need a break, we will continue. Is that okay?

That's perfect. We will continue with our list, and we will keep moving forward without one witness.

We will go to Mr. Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Carrière and Ms. Hudson, I'm sorry to have missed your appearance in the first hour. I'm told that it was rather eventful.

I have many questions about the process that led to Mr. Hunka's invitation and mainly about the seating arrangements in the gallery. When we saw Mr. Hunka in the gallery, he was clearly in the seat reserved for people who are normally recognized by the Speaker of the House.

Who makes this type of decision?

[Sébastien Carrière]

Madam Chair, I want to thank the member for his question.

As said earlier, the office of protocol has no oversight over the list of guests invited to addresses to Parliament.

The office helps process requests submitted to the parliamentary protocol office and contributes to two sections of this list, including the section listing the members of the delegation visiting Ottawa who are taking part in the event. Not all members of the delegation always take part. Sometimes, there isn't enough room.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Sorry to interrupt.

Usually, when diplomatic staff are included among the guests, the office of protocol is directly involved in the event. It reserves seats in the front rows so that these people can be recognized by the Speaker.

Is that right?

[Sébastien Carrière]

Yes. This is true for members of a diplomatic corps visiting Ottawa.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Were you told that some seats weren't available because the Speaker had reserved seats for someone?

[Sébastien Carrière]

We simply respond to the request from the parliamentary protocol office, which provides the name of the ambassador or high commissioner being invited. We aren't involved in the details of the seating arrangements.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

You aren't involved in the seating arrangements in the House of Commons.

[Sébastien Carrière]

Not at all.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

You tell the parliamentary protocol office that you need a certain number of seats, and they take care of the rest.

Is that right?

[Sébastien Carrière]

That's right.

The parliamentary protocol office can also tell us the names of the people being invited. It then arranges the invitations. We don't invite the people.