Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 7th, 2024

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Michael MacPherson]

Honourable members of the committee, I see a quorum.

I must inform members that the clerk of the committee can only receive motions for the election of the chair. The clerk cannot receive other types of motions, cannot entertain points of order, nor participate in debate.

We can now proceed to the election of the chair. Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the chair must be a member of the government party.

I'm ready to receive motions for the chair.

Mrs. Romanado.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Clerk.

I nominate Ben Carr.

[The Clerk]

It has been moved by Sherry Romanado that Ben Carr be elected as chair of the committee.

Are there any further motions?

Seeing none, is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?

(Motion agreed to)

I declare the motion carried, and Ben Carr duly elected chair of the committee. I invite him to take the chair.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, everyone.

We're going to suspend very briefly, so that I can acquaint myself with my environment. I would like the opportunity to introduce myself to staff belonging to all members, just so there's a familiarity here. We are going to suspend briefly while I undertake that, and then we will come back.

I have a couple of notices to raise. I already see there are some members raising their hands. We will hear from them at that time.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

You just got elected, and you're already taking time off.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Mark, I did read that I'm not permitted to censor members, which is a good thing for you.

We are suspended for a few moments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Colleagues, we are going to open it up. I do see some hands. I'm going to make a running list in just a moment.

I'm going to begin by reading the important information that we need to respect in regard to translation.

I want to remind all members and other meeting participants in the room of the following important preventative measures.

To prevent disruptive and potentially harmful audio feedback incidents that can cause injuries, all in-person participants are reminded to keep their earpieces away from microphones at all times. As indicated in the communiqué from the Speaker to all members on Monday, April 29, the following measures have been taken to help prevent audio feedback incidents. All earpieces have been replaced by a model that greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. The new earpieces are black in colour, whereas the former ones were grey. Please only use the black earpieces that were provided.

By default, all unused earpieces will be unplugged at the start of the meeting. When you are not using your earpiece, please place it face down on the middle sticker for the purpose that you will find on the table, as indicated. Please consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. The room layout has been adjusted, as you may have noticed, to increase the distance between microphones and reduce the chances of feedback from ambient earpieces.

These measures are in place so that we can conduct our business without interruption and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

Colleagues, I want to begin very briefly by saying that I have a deep respect, as I know everybody does, for the integrity and institution of Parliament, and the affairs with which we are, by virtue of the election to this place by the constituents we represent...is the vehicle through which we uphold the integrity of these institutions. I recognize the importance and the value of this committee in playing a prominent role in that. It's an honour and a privilege for me to be able to sit in this chair and to help conduct and facilitate the conversations that are so important to maintaining the respect and the integrity of this institution that means so much to all of us.

With that, I see a couple of hands are up. We are going to kick right off in terms of getting things under way.

I'll just read the list. I had Mrs. Romanado, Ms. Mathyssen and Mr. Cooper. Was there anybody else who had their hand up?

Mrs. Romanado, the floor is yours.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and welcome to PROC, the best committee on the Hill.

I would like to move a motion that I put on notice a little while ago. It was circulated to the procedure and House affairs committee on September 15, 2022. We've been a little busy with other studies since that time. I know that you've all received it, but if need be, I can ask the clerk to resend it around, which he will do.

The motion reads:

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee conduct a review of the Members of the House of Commons Workplace Harassment and Violence Prevention Policy and make any relevant changes to ensure members of Parliament are protected from violence and harassment of any kind between members; and that the committee report back to the House.

If you recall, a study was done previously on this, and there is currently a loophole in the harassment policy. Right now, the harassment policy that we are bound by does not prevent harassment between members. Our sexual harassment policy does cover sexual harassment between members, but the current harassment policy does not. There's a loophole in that, and we would like to look into that to see if we can close that. That was the purpose of this study, to close that loophole. That was the motion that I put on notice almost two years ago now, and I think that it would be wise for this committee to finally get to that study.

With that, I turn it back to you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Mrs. Romanado.

Go ahead, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

I saw that motion, and I am newer to the committee, so I'm getting my bearings on what has been put forward before. I thought that it was important to expand on that. I have an amendment to this study, if you'll permit me. I think we just sent it to the clerk.

It is significant. It still holds the intent of the original motion, but it expands it a bit to the following. I apologize to the interpreters; I hope they get a copy shortly. I'll say it slowly:

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3), the committee conduct a review of the Members of the House of Commons Workplace Harassment and Violence Prevention Policy, study occurrences and impacts of harassment within the House of Commons, Parliament Hill, constituency offices, and via the use of members’ social media, and make any relevant changes to ensure members of Parliament, personnel and members of the public who participate in the day-to-day activities of the institution are protected from violence and harassment.

That the committee invite:

a. The chief human resources officer

b. The current and past Speakers of the House of Commons

c. The Clerk of the House of Commons

d. The head clerk of committees

e. The Sergeant-at-Arms

f. The interpretation directorate

g. Anti-harassment specialists and workplace mental health and safety experts

h. Non-governmental organizations dedicated to electing more under-represented communities

i. Former members of Parliament

j. Members of Parliament not seeking re-election

k. Union representatives, and

l. Other witnesses requested by the committee

That six meetings be devoted to witness testimony and that witness lists be submitted to the clerk within seven days upon the adoption of this motion. And that the committee report its findings to the House no later than October 31, 2024.

The reason, if I may speak to my amendment, is that we have seen changes, I believe, even since the study was done in this committee, that concern me. Between members—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

We have a point of order from Mr. Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Can we have a copy of the amendment before we start talking about it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Mr. Berthold, if I understand correctly, the clerk is in the process of translating the amendment, so I'll let Ms. Mathyssen continue to speak a little, if it isn't too long. In a few minutes, we'll distribute a copy of the amendment to all members of the committee, in both official languages.

Is that okay with you, Mr. Berthold?

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Yes, okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Continue, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

My concern is this. I believe that, since the study and even since Mrs. Romanado introduced this motion two years ago, there have been changes. I know that I've heard about it. It is member-to-member, but it also has an impact on the larger institution and all those who work within it. It extends to our work in the community.

I want to put forward a more comprehensive list of all the people who would see those changes and have a say in terms of how we conduct ourselves here. I think that it's fairly substantial and it can have real meaning going forward. Having that date placed upon it, as there are many things that happen that this committee has to deal with, ensures that we stay on course and that we can focus on this, because I truly believe that this will have a lasting impact.

I will stop there. I hope that you are all able to get that amendment physically in hand so that we can continue the discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Okay, so there are a couple of things here, colleagues.

Ms. Mathyssen, just so my understanding is correct, you moved your motion to amend. I believe we now have a copy of this translated into both official languages.

The clerk will distribute it right away.

Just as a reminder now, because we are in a discussion about the amendment proposed by Ms. Mathyssen, I ask any members who wish to speak to this amendment to please let me know.

I am certainly happy to provide a couple of moments for committee members to review, particularly those who are just getting it for the first time in French. It's just starting to make its way around now, so we'll just give colleagues a couple of moments to review that. As I said, if anybody would like to speak to this, please indicate that to the chair so that I can start to create a new list.

Mr. Cooper, I still have your name from before, which we will return to once we're done dealing with the amendment.

Ms. Gaudreau, the floor is yours.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

First of all, I want to commend the fact that we have a proposal on a topic that's been on the table for two years.

Let's remember that some of us sat on the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs two years ago. We're being surprised by a lot of things we didn't anticipate and that worries me.

There's been a lot of talk about interference in recent months. There's also been talk of disinformation, including what's going on at the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics right now, and misinformation. I think we're now at the stage of demystifying things.

I haven't taken the time to analyze who we should invite, but we have about 11 meetings left. If we want to do something constructive, I think we should look at that. This topic has been on the table for a long time now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.

Mrs. Romanado, please go ahead.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank my colleague for bringing forward that amendment.

Obviously, since I put forward that notice of motion, almost two years ago, a lot has changed. The conversation about civility and how this place works has been top of mind, and I think it requires all of us to conduct ourselves in a way that Canadians expect of us.

There is a loophole, unfortunately, in terms of the harassment policy. I've heard from people, whether they be a witness or a colleague, that they're not enjoying the experience of their time on the Hill. I think it requires that we look at it a little more, have an adult conversation about how we conduct ourselves, and close any loopholes there may be, so that, in the event of a situation in which a member is subject to harassment, they have a vehicle they can use to address it.

I thank my colleague for bringing forward the amendment. It's much more prescriptive, which I think is a great idea. We have a few weeks left before the House rises. We can really get some interesting work done here and open that conversation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thanks, Mrs. Romanado.

I have Mr. Gerretsen next.

He will be followed by Mr. Berthold.

Then, Monsieur Berthold will be followed by Mr. Duncan.

Mr. Gerretsen, the floor is yours.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you for the amendment. I think it's extremely germane. I think it lends itself well to the motion.

As part of this study, I would really like to hear from the Sergeant-at-Arms, specifically because of the comments he's made and because of media reports lately that have involved the Sergeant-at-Arms: stuff that's going on at constituency offices and how MPs may or may not be harassing constituency employees by showing up at offices that don't belong to them. I'd also like to hear from HR experts as to what constitutes harassment exactly. Where does that fall into play here?

I'm very much open to this amendment. I think it's great. I think we should vote in favour of it. I'm looking forward to doing a study on this so that we can properly put in place the safeguards for members, obviously, as the motion indicates, but I'm more interested in my staff.

Thank you.